Lessons Learned on Range Anxiety

[J Alynn]

There's a lot of fear-uncertainty-doubt (FUD) being peddled against EVs out there. I would seriously question everything that claims an EV is worse in costs or environmental impact and look at the source of that claim. Instead, ask the people (not the influencers who gin up controversy) driving them for their real-world experience or read a bunch of factual science papers about their costs and impacts, not the selectively-picked headlines driving an agenda.

I have >43,000 miles on my Mustang's original All Season tires and they still have 8/32 tread left (from their original 10/32). I have rotated them four times. I usually run them slightly overinflated (42 PSI instead of 39 cold, but I have them at 37 right now because of winter). I run them slightly higher because I like the way they handle. I really wanted these to wear out sooner because I wanted to replace them with something I like better, but I'm afraid they'll outlast their 55,000 mile treadwear warranty by at least 20,000 miles.

I've seen some people wear their tires out in 20,000 miles. Mostly, it's their driving habits. It's ridiculously fun to slam the go pedal down, but of course that's going to impact tread wear, even when it doesn't leave a strip of rubber (dang traction control working at 1000 Hz makes it unfairly difficult to squeal the tires). People who drive like they stole the vehicle might wear out their tires more quickly in an EV. But that's because it's more fun to drive an EV. That's not the same as EVs wear out tires more quickly. Some drivers of EVs wear out tires more quickly, just as some drivers of Corvettes wear out their tires more quickly.

Does the weight matter? Sure, some (for the same formulation of tire, it seems to be about 5-20% faster wear for every 1,000 pounds more weight, but that's highly dependent on the formulation, the air pressure, the road surface, and the driver). Tire manufacturers have been reformulating their tires every year or so for decades to provide better/different handling and they're learning to do that with EV-specific tires. Just like there are specific tires for light trucks or summer handling or mud or snow or whatever. If someone makes a poor decision of which tire to put on after they wear out their original tires, it may lead to unexpected tire wear, but that's a failure of the owner, it's not caused by the vehicle.

A driver of an EV who likes to use regen a lot can get significantly less wear on their tires than for a similarly-capable gas car. A taxi service in Scotland added a bunch of Nissan Leafs to its fleet and drove those alongside its diesel taxis with the same passenger capacity. They found they were replacing the tires less often on the Leafs than on the diesel taxis, despite the much better acceleration of the Leaf. Their brakes wear much, much less as well. They were also paying less in maintenance and energy costs.

Will the Scout wear out tires more quickly? With the 35s and 37s some people are talking about, I think many of those are going to wear out quickly simply because they'll be running big, knobby tires that sing to their drivers while on the highway, which is likely where most of their miles will be spent, just like they do on Jeeps and big pickups and SUVs. Will the weight of the Scout cause any additional wear? Some, yeah, but not as much as the FUD makes people seem to think. 33s and smaller tires at the proper inflation will see minimal extra wear compared with any other vehicle of similar capability with the proper tires and proper pressure. That is, except for the people who find it fun to slam the go pedal down. They're going to need to get new tires pretty regularly, as has always been the case.

Before I purchase any vehicle I do a total cost of ownership (TCO) calculation for all of the vehicles I'm considering. I wrote up some software to do this modeling and verified it works with past vehicles (I keep the receipts). These models include fuel costs, replacing tires, replacing fluids, loan costs, insurance costs, registration costs, other maintenance costs, upfront costs, resale value, etc. I've run these comparisons taking into account the fluctuating costs of energy, maintenance, labor, and other costs in >100,000 model runs per comparison (for millions of total model runs). For the 7,000 to 20,000+ miles per year of driving that we do, in 97-99% of the model runs, our Lightning Lariat TCO is cheaper than an equivalently-equipped F-150 Lariat within two years of purchasing. That is, after two years of owning the Lightning, I'm making money compared to if I'd purchased its gas equivalent. Our Mustang Mach-E is cheaper than an equivalently-capable mid-sized SUV within 3 years of purchasing.

I'll have to reevaluate the model inputs for the Mustang since the tires are lasting longer than I had anticipated and I'm spending less on maintenance.

Extremely educational and thought provoking in a positive way. Wish more people made the effort you do to understand the real benefits of owning an EV vehicle

 

[MaddMatt]

Before I purchase any vehicle I do a total cost of ownership (TCO) calculation for all of the vehicles I'm considering. I wrote up some software to do this modeling and verified it works with past vehicles (I keep the receipts). These models include fuel costs, replacing tires, replacing fluids, loan costs, insurance costs, registration costs, other maintenance costs, upfront costs, resale value, etc. I've run these comparisons taking into account the fluctuating costs of energy, maintenance, labor, and other costs in >100,000 model runs per comparison (for millions of total model runs). For the 7,000 to 20,000+ miles per year of driving that we do, in 97-99% of the model runs, our Lightning Lariat TCO is cheaper than an equivalently-equipped F-150 Lariat within two years of purchasing. That is, after two years of owning the Lightning, I'm making money compared to if I'd purchased its gas equivalent. Our Mustang Mach-E is cheaper than an equivalently-capable mid-sized SUV within 3 years of purchasing.

I love it - your brain is where I think mine is going to go; I do the same thing prior to a vehicle purchase, (or any purchase, vacation planning, etc..) but once the decision is made I rarely remember to think about it again. I don't worry about TCO, but size is a big factor (I'm 6', my wife is 5'2", so it's a challenge to find something we're both comfortable driving), mpg, HP, Torque, get compared, but once I get it home I tend to forget about it. Probably because I've just accepted the 15-16mpg and 40k mile tire life on my current ride (paid for Xterra, turned 100k yesterday)

 

[AndyS_OSU]

Owned 5 different pure EVs (non-Tesla) over the last 10 years. Outside of the i3 which is just a commuter car, all the others did road trips. I’m not sure what the big deal is. We aren’t the drive-straight-through-the-night type of travelers so adding a little bit of time for charging has never been an issue. Have we had trouble a few times with charging stations, sure. But nothing that wasn’t remedied quickly. Otherwise, we’ve always charged at home and I’ve never once worried about range.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I love it - your brain is where I think mine is going to go; I do the same thing prior to a vehicle purchase, (or any purchase, vacation planning, etc..) but once the decision is made I rarely remember to think about it again. I don't worry about TCO, but size is a big factor (I'm 6', my wife is 5'2", so it's a challenge to find something we're both comfortable driving), mpg, HP, Torque, get compared, but once I get it home I tend to forget about it. Probably because I've just accepted the 15-16mpg and 40k mile tire life on my current ride (paid for Xterra, turned 100k yesterday)

I'm 6'1" and my partner is 5'4". We have a similar problem. The Lightning has adjustable pedals, seats, and steering wheel, and---as importantly---three memory settings for those. It's fantastically conformable to our differences.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Extremely educational and thought provoking in a positive way. Wish more people made the effort you do to understand the real benefits of owning an EV vehicle

I'm a scientist and an educator. I usually have to delete my first snarky responses...

 

[J Alynn]

I'm a scientist and an educator. I usually have to delete my first snarky responses...

Those are fun too but the past two years have been great here because 98% of the members act respectfully and try to offer educational and positive thoughts rather than constant snarky comments like the other 1-2%.
So thank you-I’ve enjoyed many of your posts since you became active

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Those are fun too but the past two years have been great here because 98% of the members act respectfully and try to offer educational and positive thoughts rather than constant snarky comments like the other 1-2%.
So thank you-I’ve enjoyed many of your posts since you became active

It's fun to watch a new community of potential EV owners from and develop. I wouldn't want to cause harm to that.

I've been a car geek since I was a toddler. I did my first full engine rebuild---of a Chevy 427 for placement into a Scout---when I was 8 years old. I've owned nearly every brand of affordable vehicle available in the US. I never understood how a car person could dislike any particular car. Sure, there are reasons to enjoy a particular car or brand or type of car or whatever, but finding the neat, fun, exciting, or interesting in any car seems to be one of the joys of being a car geek... At least to me.

Modern EVs are the most interesting paradigm shift in automobiles since the internal combustion engine was invented. And I get to be witness to it?! Why wouldn't I find that exciting?!

 

[MaddMatt]

I'm 6'1" and my partner is 5'4". We have a similar problem. The Lightning has adjustable pedals, seats, and steering wheel, and---as importantly---three memory settings for those. It's fantastically conformable to our differences.

For what it's worth, after nearly 30 years together and multiple vehicles, the Infiniti QX30 fit both of us better than any other vehicle we've ever tried. Wasn't super easy for me to get in, but once in I didn't need to put the seat all the way back, and without question the most comfortable seats I've ever tried. Loved that car, and would still have it, but during the Covid car "shortage" the dealer offered me more than we had paid nearly two years earlier, and while I love cars I'm not missing a chance to turn a depreciating asset into a positive investment, so I took the check before he changed his mind.

 

[LastDayScout]

It's fun to watch a new community of potential EV owners from and develop. I wouldn't want to cause harm to that.

I've been a car geek since I was a toddler. I did my first full engine rebuild---of a Chevy 427 for placement into a Scout---when I was 8 years old. I've owned nearly every brand of affordable vehicle available in the US. I never understood how a car person could dislike any particular car. Sure, there are reasons to enjoy a particular car or brand or type of car or whatever, but finding the neat, fun, exciting, or interesting in any car seems to be one of the joys of being a car geek... At least to me.

Modern EVs are the most interesting paradigm shift in automobiles since the internal combustion engine was invented. And I get to be witness to it?! Why wouldn't I find that exciting?!

Well said from a true enthusiast!

 

[R1TVT]

There's a lot of fear-uncertainty-doubt (FUD) being peddled against EVs out there.

I've seen some people wear their tires out in 20,000 miles. Mostly, it's their driving habits. It's ridiculously fun to slam the go pedal down, but of course that's going to impact tread wear, even when it doesn't leave a strip of rubber (dang traction control working at 1000 Hz makes it unfairly difficult to squeal the tires). People who drive like they stole the vehicle might wear out their tires more quickly in an EV.

100% agree! And in a heavier truck with a lower center of gravity that is fun to drive, ripping around corners will also create wear. Guilty as charged, and good timing. I just swapped out my summer Pirelli AT's for Nokian winter tires today.

There are also 2 other things that can have an impact on tire wear over time in my truck, but they can be managed quite easily with some basic awareness for what happens in different settings:

1. The first that can have an impact is driving in what Rivian calls, "Conserve Mode". When in Conserve Mode, the truck disengages the 2 rear motors and runs only the 2 front motors on the 2 front wheels. This is an excellent setting for cruising, long, straight HWY runs. However, some owners (probably the same ones that don't really understand settings, drive modes, and how they work) just leave Conserve Mode "ON" in their truck all the time (like driving around town) thinking that they are getting the greatest efficiency ever, when in fact they may be burning through rubber! When driving around town in Conserve Mode, performance is not as good as "All Purpose Mode" using all 4 motors, and there is much more pressure on the inside corners of the two front tires - the ones doing all the work.

2. The second factor is ride height. Conserve mode (for example) can also be combined with a lowered ride height (the truck has adjustable air suspension) to slightly further reduce energy consumption, but this places the truck into a lowered stance, which moves a completely flat tire into a slightly more toe-in prone position. With Conserve Mode "ON" and the ride height set to the lowest possible setting, there is going to be more pressure on the inside corners of all 4 tires (when squatting the truck). If you couple that with driving like a chowder-head, you are going to see more wear. Conversely, if you ride around all the time on a higher ride height setting, the stance of the truck changes again, and you will see more toe-out wear on the tires, when constantly riding in a lifted position. The key is using the right settings for the right driving conditions and not being lazy. Generally speaking for daily driving in the R1T, "All-Purpose" mode, at standard ride height, is the way to go.

With AT tires (and a full-sized spare on the R1T,) I do a 5-wheel tire rotation every 7500 miles and that seems to be just about right. I have had a very solid run on my AT's (I have ~40K on my truck) but I also run winter tires for 4-5 months a year, as mentioned. I will probably buy my first new set of AT tires next summer I'm guessing, and I do sometimes drive around like a chowder head (a lot less now that I have owned the truck for 2 and half years).

Lastly, and if you live in snow country, I am a strong believer in having 2 sets of very good tires (as opposed to 1 middling set). Since tires will eventually wear-out, I would much rather pay for 2 sets in advance, have both sets longer, and enjoy better tires for winter driving and better tires for summer. Mediocre all-season tires don't seem to do anything well. I run about 4 or 5 months on these snows, then switch back to the AT's (also helps with the needed rotations):

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Exactly it’s called having choices in what services one wants to partake in

However, when everyone pays for services only offered to a few we have problems

Why should everyone pay for something only a few people are offered

Everybody who stays at the hotel is being offered access to the chargers, just like many hotels offer free toothbrushes and razors if needed, but few take that offer. so we don’t have a problem.

 

[Rampy]

Everybody who stays at the hotel is being offered access to the chargers, just like many hotels offer free toothbrushes and razors if needed, but few take that offer. so we don’t have a problem.

Sure they are offering free electricity to everyone but they also know only a very very small percentage will talk advantage of it while spreading the cost out to everyone

It’s forcing everyone to pay for something almost nobody will ever use

It’s really quite simple to understand

 

[Rampy]

100% agree! And in a heavier truck with a lower center of gravity that is fun to drive, ripping around corners will also create wear. Guilty as charged, and good timing. I just swapped out my summer Pirelli AT's for Nokian winter tires today.

There are also 2 other things that can have an impact on tire wear over time in my truck, but they can be managed quite easily with some basic awareness for what happens in different settings:

1. The first that can have an impact is driving in what Rivian calls, "Conserve Mode". When in Conserve Mode, the truck disengages the 2 rear motors and runs only the 2 front motors on the 2 front wheels. This is an excellent setting for cruising, long, straight HWY runs. However, some owners (probably the same ones that don't really understand settings, drive modes, and how they work) just leave Conserve Mode "ON" in their truck all the time (like driving around town) thinking that they are getting the greatest efficiency ever, when in fact they may be burning through rubber! When driving around town in Conserve Mode, performance is not as good as "All Purpose Mode" using all 4 motors, and there is much more pressure on the inside corners of the two front tires - the ones doing all the work.

2. The second factor is ride height. Conserve mode (for example) can also be combined with a lowered ride height (the truck has adjustable air suspension) to slightly further reduce energy consumption, but this places the truck into a lowered stance, which moves a completely flat tire into a slightly more toe-in prone position. With Conserve Mode "ON" and the ride height set to the lowest possible setting, there is going to be more pressure on the inside corners of all 4 tires (when squatting the truck). If you couple that with driving like a chowder-head, you are going to see more wear. Conversely, if you ride around all the time on a higher ride height setting, the stance of the truck changes again, and you will see more toe-out wear on the tires, when constantly riding in a lifted position. The key is using the right settings for the right driving conditions and not being lazy. Generally speaking for daily driving in the R1T, "All-Purpose" mode, at standard ride height, is the way to go.

With AT tires (and a full-sized spare on the R1T,) I do a 5-wheel tire rotation every 7500 miles and that seems to be just about right. I have had a very solid run on my AT's (I have ~40K on my truck) but I also run winter tires for 4-5 months a year, as mentioned. I will probably buy my first new set of AT tires next summer I'm guessing, and I do sometimes drive around like a chowder head (a lot less now that I have owned the truck for 2 and half years).

Lastly, and if you live in snow country, I am a strong believer in having 2 sets of very good tires (as opposed to 1 middling set). Since tires will eventually wear-out, I would much rather pay for 2 sets in advance, have both sets longer, and enjoy better tires for winter driving and better tires for summer. Mediocre all-season tires don't seem to do anything well. I run about 4 or 5 months on these snows, then switch back to the AT's (also helps with the needed rotations):

View attachment 3927

Ran Nokian winter tires on the RWD Scat Pack 392 & they were killer tires, really a incredible winter upgrade

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

We're on a road trip now.

We drove ~500 miles the first day, ~7 hours. Stayed with family for several days while working during the day and visiting in the evenings. They only have Level 1, but we got to about 97% while there.

Next leg was only 2 hours away, so we did that after dinner. This stop had a Level 2 charger. We got to 100% overnight. Stayed a few days there. Left with 100%.

The next section of the road trip was 600 miles, about 10 hours total. Three legs of ~200 miles each. At the end of the driving day we had dinner with and visited family. Charged on their welding plug with a Level 2 charger drawing 15A (3.6 kW).

The hotel we're staying at right now has pay-to-use chargers. It's about the same cost as a fast charger. At 5.6 kW, it's probably not going to bring us up to 100% by the morning. We will pay about $20 to get to about 80%.

Starting at 80% will be fine for our driving tomorrow, which will be two legs of about 215 miles each.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I love it - your brain is where I think mine is going to go; I do the same thing prior to a vehicle purchase, (or any purchase, vacation planning, etc..) but once the decision is made I rarely remember to think about it again. I don't worry about TCO, but size is a big factor (I'm 6', my wife is 5'2", so it's a challenge to find something we're both comfortable driving), mpg, HP, Torque, get compared, but once I get it home I tend to forget about it. Probably because I've just accepted the 15-16mpg and 40k mile tire life on my current ride (paid for Xterra, turned 100k yesterday)

I'm a data nerd, so I overanalyze everything and then keep tracking to check how to improve my analysis next time.

 

[RebelliousPeasant]

Sure they are offering free electricity to everyone but they also know only a very very small percentage will talk advantage of it while spreading the cost out to everyone

It’s forcing everyone to pay for something almost nobody will ever use

It’s really quite simple to understand

Exactly how expensive do you think it is to charge an EV overnight?! Hotels will probably spend more money per year on toilet paper than they will on powering a bunch of level 2 EV chargers.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Directly related to range anxiety:

Woke up this morning around 0600. The charge rate had been less than I'd expected and the truck had only reached 61%. So I got up, took the truck for a refueling run to a nearby fast charger. On a DCFC, I would normally only charge to 80% or maybe 85% if I had a sparsity of chargers on my upcoming leg. But in this case, the charging station was empty, so I napped in the truck with the seat heater on while it was charging and woke up to 92%. I got some coffee and headed back to the hotel. It's back on the slow L2 charger at the hotel while we get ready for the day.

If you're stuck on a particular way of doing things and any deviation messes with your equilibrium, then change is probably not for you. At this stage in the infrastructure, roadtripping with EVs does require flexibility and adapting to changes in your plan.

We haven't lost any time to the slow charger, but it did require that I make a refueling run to a nearby fast charger because of a deviation from the expected. It's not going to ruin our trip by any means. I can imagine some people might be more than a little perturbed by such a setback.

 

[Rampy]

Exactly how expensive do you think it is to charge an EV overnight?! Hotels will probably spend more money per year on toilet paper than they will on powering a bunch of level 2 EV chargers.

Going in circles here, it’s not about how expensive the infrastructure is or the cost of electricity

It’s about offering a service that only a very few will utilize while charging everyone to subsidize it for the few

Having hotel chargers that are pay as you go is a wonderful idea

 

[RebelliousPeasant]

Going in circles here, it’s not about how expensive the infrastructure is or the cost of electricity

It’s about offering a service that only a very few will utilize while charging everyone to subsidize it for the few

Having hotel chargers that are pay as you go is a wonderful idea

By that logic I shouldn't have to fund the fire department or library because I never use those either. Thankfully "very few" people actually use the fire department. I've personally never had a house burn down or even a neighbour's house! Should those be pay-as-you-go too then? Of course not!

What a ridiculous position to argue from.

Hotels and any other organizations are free to spend money on whatever service or infrastructure they want to and they are free to not charge users for it if they don't want to. That is how actual freedom in a free country works. By the same token you are absolutely free to not patronize those businesses and only visit hotels that make you pay for charging, little 'continental breakfasts', tiny shampoo bottles, and toilet paper if you want to.

Your whole argument is predicated on the cost to the many for the benefit of the few, so actually yes, it IS about how expensive it is. You just said so in the second line of your reply!

Personally I'll visit the ones that are offering that stuff for free though along with EV charging because I'm not a weirdo and like to get free stuff sometimes if it's being offered!

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Let's get back to discussions about lessons learned on range anxiety please. Thanks!