Lessons Learned on Range Anxiety

[Logan]

I imagine it had something to do with the fact that hotels CAN'T offer fuel, but they can offer charging, and and it is pretty inexpensive to add support for it. Also, I'd imagine that was also tied to initial usage rate being pretty low, and the cost being pretty low to charge the typical EV (ie, a full charge in my PHEV is $1.40, a full tank of gas for the same vehicle would be ~$40. A full charge in a "normal sized" EV with a ~85KWh battery would be like $9 at my house, while a "normal" sized gas tank of ~15-18gal would cost $60-75 or so)

But also, even trying to be fair, its hard to do completely in practice. They don't charge you differently depending on how much heat/AC you're using in your room, if you ate 4 Belgian waffles and all the yogurt, or if you took a 3 hour long hot shower or something.

In the future, I imagine they'll be more formal about it, with costs tied to your stay (like room service??).

 

[Scoutsie]

I imagine it had something to do with the fact that hotels CAN'T offer fuel, but they can offer charging, and and it is pretty inexpensive to add support for it. Also, I'd imagine that was also tied to initial usage rate being pretty low, and the cost being pretty low to charge the typical EV (ie, a full charge in my PHEV is $1.40, a full tank of gas for the same vehicle would be ~$40. A full charge in a "normal sized" EV with a ~85KWh battery would be like $9 at my house, while a "normal" sized gas tank of ~15-18gal would cost $60-75 or so)

But also, even trying to be fair, its hard to do completely in practice. They don't charge you differently depending on how much heat/AC you're using in your room, if you ate 4 Belgian waffles and all the yogurt, or if you took a 3 hour long hot shower or something.

In the future, I imagine they'll be more formal about it, with costs tied to your stay (like room service??).

It’s a lot cheaper for your business to offer charging stations subsidized by your state than gas that isn’t subsidized or incentivized. If you want gas and a hotel, there’s always Love’s or Town Pump.

 

[Rampy]

It’s a lot cheaper for your business to offer charging stations subsidized by your state than gas that isn’t subsidized or incentivized. If you want gas and a hotel, there’s always Love’s or Town Pump.

Subsidizing needs to stop, government giving taxpayer money away to prop up private companies is garbage

No more subsidizing of any kind, if you need government money to exist, you are not worth existing

 

[R1TVT]

Food is offered to everyone, free gasoline is not offered to everyone like how free electricity is offered to EV drivers

Someone has to pay for your free electricity & why should guests not driving an EV have to pay for it

It’s all about equality & treating everyone the same

I hate to break it to you, but there is an absolute butt-load of free charging out in the wild. A hotel may choose (or not choose) to offer free charging - and that is because we live in a free society. The same hotel might choose to install solar on its roof, and generate more electricity than it can consume in a day. They may use that energy to off-set their electrical bill, or they may sell it back to the grid.

That same hotel might also offer FREE WiFi, but guests not using free WiFi aren't looking for compensation.

For purely financial reasons alone, and if I had a hotel or a small business, I would seriously consider putting in free L2 chargers (and solar for my business). In addition to the ability to serve a potentially attractive demographic that would be likely to spend more at my place of business (57% of BEV owners make more than $100K annually), I would also be doing something that is good for the environment. The solar portion of my investment would have a concrete payback period that would be realized sooner with charging and I would see potentially more bookings from EV owners. Lastly, the demographics and buying power for Hybrid owners looks startling similar to BEV owners. They like a little free charging here and there too.

One of the biggest surprises and benefits to EV ownership is FREE CHARGING.

I have had free charging at hotels, ski areas, airports, even at DCFC chargers when they run a promo or give you a credit. Certain OEM's give (or have given) buyers of their EV's free DCFC charging. Hell, I can pull into my office and charge up for free anytime. There is a LOT of free charging out there. It is generally L2 and not fast charging, and it is a great thing.

 

[Rampy]

I hate to break it to you, but there is an absolute butt-load of free charging out in the wild. A hotel may choose (or not choose) to offer free charging - and that is because we live in a free society. The same hotel might choose to install solar on its roof, and generate more electricity than it can consume in a day. They may use that energy to off-set their electrical bill, or they may sell it back to the grid.

That same hotel might also offer FREE WiFi, but guests not using free WiFi aren't looking for compensation.

For purely financial reasons alone, and if I had a hotel or a small business, I would seriously consider putting in free L2 chargers (and solar for my business). In addition to the ability to serve a potentially attractive demographic that would be likely to spend more at my place of business (57% of BEV owners make more than $100K annually), I would also be doing something that is good for the environment. The solar portion of my investment would have a concrete payback period that would be realized sooner with charging and I would see potentially more bookings from EV owners. Lastly, the demographics and buying power for Hybrid owners looks startling similar to BEV owners. They like a little free charging here and there too.

One of the biggest surprises and benefits to EV ownership is FREE CHARGING.

I have had free charging at hotels, ski areas, airports, even at DCFC chargers when they run a promo or give you a credit. Certain OEM's give (or have given) buyers of their EV's free DCFC charging. Hell, I can pull into my office and charge up for free anytime. There is a LOT of free charging out there. It is generally L2 and not fast charging, and it is a great thing.

I hate to break it to you, but there is an absolute butt-load of free charging out in the wild. A hotel may choose (or not choose) to offer free charging - and that is because we live in a free society. The same hotel might choose to install solar on its roof, and generate more electricity than it can consume in a day. They may use that energy to off-set their electrical bill, or they may sell it back to the grid.

That same hotel might also offer FREE WiFi, but guests not using free WiFi aren't looking for compensation.

For purely financial reasons alone, and if I had a hotel or a small business, I would seriously consider putting in free L2 chargers (and solar for my business). In addition to the ability to serve a potentially attractive demographic that would be likely to spend more at my place of business (57% of BEV owners make more than $100K annually), I would also be doing something that is good for the environment. The solar portion of my investment would have a concrete payback period that would be realized sooner with charging and I would see potentially more bookings from EV owners. Lastly, the demographics and buying power for Hybrid owners looks startling similar to BEV owners. They like a little free charging here and there too.

One of the biggest surprises and benefits to EV ownership is FREE CHARGING.

I have had free charging at hotels, ski areas, airports, even at DCFC chargers when they run a promo or give you a credit. Certain OEM's give (or have given) buyers of their EV's free DCFC charging. Hell, I can pull into my office and charge up for free anytime. There is a LOT of free charging out there. It is generally L2 and not fast charging, and it is a great thing.

So you have to bribe people to purchase a EV with free electricity at the expense of everyone else

Not even going to get into how bad for the environment solar panels are

No wonder Rivan is losing around 46k on every vehicle sold but they are a successful company

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Why??

You don’t see gas pumps at hotels, why should they get free electricity to power their car?

He didn't say it should be free. He said hotels should consider offering chargers. It would be up to the hotel to build it into the room charge (like free breakfast) or just charge for it.

 

[R1TVT]

So you have to bribe people to purchase a EV with free electricity at the expense of everyone else

Not even going to get into how bad for the environment solar panels are

No wonder Rivan is losing around 46k on every vehicle sold but they are a successful company

Hardly. I have never felt bribed when getting free charging, quite the opposite, I actually feel rewarded. I bought my truck ONLY expecting to see a benefit from my own personal decision to add solar to my roof, when home charging. Free charging in other places was simply an unexpected benefit of ownership.

This isn't a zero sum game where alternative sources of energy are 100% pure and free from problems or costs or the need for new ways to recycle. Compare the delivery costs of electricity to the delivery costs of fossil fuels (from extraction to refinement through production to transportation and end consumption), for example. Both have costs (not just financial), but one is far more efficient and less polluting to deliver. Of course some electricity comes from non-renewable sources, so there are a number of variables to account for in any modeling. In the end, the benefits of electric power generated by solar (as one example, in my case) far outweigh those of non-renewables, of course.

As far as Rivian goes, they are a brand new company - no different than any new company that must burn cash to get out of the gate and survive. I wouldn't count them out yet (even with an incorrect figure of 46k / vehicle) - it was actually $39K as of Q3 earnings, and they reaffirmed guidance. It will be interesting to see how well the R2 platform sells, as this is where they stand to generate profits and ramp into a whole new mid-market offering.

 

[Chaparral]

Not even going to get into how bad for the environment solar panels are

I don’t expect this assertion can be backed up with science.

The environment impact of anything is challenging to calculate because there are so many different factors to track. However, I will make a simple comparison here between solar energy and gasoline. This will show that you have a mountain to climb if you are going to prove your claim that solar panels are bad for the environment.

Over its lifetime, a modern solar panel will produce about 40,000 kWh of energy.
That’s enough energy to drive an EV with a 3 miles per kWh efficiency for 120,000 miles.
A gasoline vehicle that does 30 miles per gallon would burn 4000 gallons of gas driving the same distance.
Burning 4000 gallons of gas in an ICE produces about 9.6 metric tons of pure carbon.

The solar panel produces zero carbon emissions, whereas the ICE produces a lot! That’s a big mountain you need to climb.

There is of course an environmental impact in manufacturing, shipping and installing the solar panel.
But there is also an environmental impact in manufacturing and maintaining the ICE and also in manufacturing the EV’s battery pack and motors. So it is very complicated problem if you try to track all the connected variables.

However, when it comes to producing energy is it very easy to see that a solar panel produces zero carbon emissions and therefore, with respect to atmospheric carbon, does not contribute to changing the makeup of the atmosphere.

 

[Rampy]

He didn't say it should be free. He said hotels should consider offering chargers. It would be up to the hotel to build it into the room charge (like free breakfast) or just charge for it.

Free electricity has been mentioned more than a few times & how people like it & want it and actually book hotels that allow free charging as it’s a perk

If hotels charge for electricity that’s most excellent, set up chargers so guests can charge. We stay in some hotels with Tesla chargers in the parking lot for guests. If Tesla can do this why not everyone

when something is given away free to a few people but increases costs for everyone that’s what I take issue with it as we all know nothing is free & someone always has to pay for freebies

 

[Rampy]

Only clean renewable energy currently available is nuclear, that’s the future of renewable energy not wind or solar

 

[R1TVT]

Free electricity has been mentioned more than a few times & how people like it & want it and actually book hotels that allow free charging as it’s a perk

If hotels charge for electricity that’s most excellent, set up chargers so guests can charge. We stay in some hotels with Tesla chargers in the parking lot for guests. If Tesla can do this why not everyone

when something is given away free to a few people but increases costs for everyone that’s what I take issue with it as we all know nothing is free & someone always has to pay for freebies

Good news. We live in a free society built on capitalism (as opposed to some form of communist state). Business owners are free to run their businesses as they see fit. YOU get to vote with your wallet. If a business wants to cater to pet owners, install solar or partner with a local farm and give away free samples of their guacamole, they can do it and the market will decide if guests like it. If it really bothers guests that the hotel might offer free WiFi, give away free coffee in the lobby or have a set of free L2 chargers in the parking lot, guests can choose to stay somewhere else. I can't imagine freaking out when half the guests in a hotel plug in their hair dryers (that I don't use). The aggregate electricity from hair dryers across the hotel is probably consuming more electricity than a car at a charger.

Some hotels just happen to have free (and in this case, TESLA) chargers on premises, where I wasn't even planning on having access to a L2 - just a nice surprise upon arrival. Here is one example of that, total surprise while at a wedding in VT:

Other hotels may bundle charging under a resort fee with taxes. Not everyone has a pet, not everyone uses a charger, not everyone wants shuttle service, etc. Sounds like you should be wary of hotels with bundles. While you might choose NOT to stay at a hotel b/c there is a resort fee, these are actually attractive to many guests, who will go out of their way to book based on amenities like these

Another example in VT (down the street from the above hotel that had completely free charging):

 

[Harris005]

I have had several front desk employees ask me to only charge what I need and then kindly move. Also, I have had valets charge what is needed and then move. I thinks it’s all education and experience mixed with a dash of consideration.

Valet is an interesting take. Would that be the ultimate solution for hotels. If you're an EV owner and want a charge, you use our EV valet service. They monitor and move around the vehicles as needed.

 

[Harris005]

Why??

You don’t see gas pumps at hotels, why should they get free electricity to power their car?

Fair point. I guess my mind went to the fact that fast charging is harder on your batteries. Hotels that set up and advertise for overnight charging would be appealing for that reason, and knowing in the morning you can simply hit the road.

 

[Harris005]

Food is offered to everyone, free gasoline is not offered to everyone like how free electricity is offered to EV drivers

Someone has to pay for your free electricity & why should guests not driving an EV have to pay for it

It’s all about equality & treating everyone the same

From what I understand the rapid charging cost more. If you're not in a hurry to charge and keep going; it just seems that an overnight stay with an overnight charge makes sense. Just my simple mind thinking here. I don't know (sure someone on here does), but I would think that rapid chargers cost a lot more for the hotel to install than multiple overnight chargers. Anybody have any insight on this?

 

[J Alynn]

From what I understand the rapid charging cost more. If you're not in a hurry to charge and keep going; it just seems that an overnight stay with an overnight charge makes sense. Just my simple mind thinking here. I don't know (sure someone on here does), but I would think that rapid chargers cost a lot more for the hotel to install than multiple overnight chargers. Anybody have any insight on this?

I think it’s simply a perk as already mentioned. We travel a lot with overnight stays. If we have a choice of two hotels side by side (as many do now) and one offers free breakfast and the other doesn’t-we take the free breakfast. It’s the hotel chain/owner’s discretion to offer whatever they like (legally). Some offer free cookies at a certain times. Others offer a cocktail and snacks as a happy hour perk.
Therefore. When I eventually get my Traveler I’ll look for the free charging perk. Promotions make the world go round. Same reason fast food joints offer a free sandwich with purchase of another. They bank on you buying beverages and sides which have HUGE mark ups so maybe they break even but they get you in the door which likely brings you back again.
Sometimes free is just a lost marketing lead and that’s OK. and I’m honest enough to say I like free. Hence the saying
“If it’s free-it’s for me!”

 

[Scoutsie]

From what I understand the rapid charging cost more. If you're not in a hurry to charge and keep going; it just seems that an overnight stay with an overnight charge makes sense. Just my simple mind thinking here. I don't know (sure someone on here does), but I would think that rapid chargers cost a lot more for the hotel to install than multiple overnight chargers. Anybody have any insight on this?

The hardware only is around $10-40K. That does not include soft costs (like permits), installation, infrastructure, software, or power management. As a long-term investment, it’s probably fine for a big chain in the right markets.

 

[Rampy]

Valet is an interesting take. Would that be the ultimate solution for hotels. If you're an EV owner and want a charge, you use our EV valet service. They monitor and move around the vehicles as needed.

We stayed at a resort in Telluride that only had valet parking & they did move vehicles around depending on needs with 2 charging stations

Valet parking for EV’s would be a excellent way to control charging points and times

 

[LastDayScout]

From what I understand the rapid charging cost more. If you're not in a hurry to charge and keep going; it just seems that an overnight stay with an overnight charge makes sense. Just my simple mind thinking here. I don't know (sure someone on here does), but I would think that rapid chargers cost a lot more for the hotel to install than multiple overnight chargers. Anybody have any insight on this?

I have been at hotels that have one to as many as eight level 2 chargers. All were no additional fees.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

From what I understand the rapid charging cost more. If you're not in a hurry to charge and keep going; it just seems that an overnight stay with an overnight charge makes sense. Just my simple mind thinking here. I don't know (sure someone on here does), but I would think that rapid chargers cost a lot more for the hotel to install than multiple overnight chargers. Anybody have any insight on this?

I've never seen a rapid (DC Fast) charger at a hotel as part of the hotel services. I have seen DC Fast Chargers in hotel parking lots, but it was not part of the amenities; the charge provider was likely leasing the parking lot space from the hotel.
Many hotels have Level 2 chargers, and some offer a 120 volt outlet or a 240 volt outlet. Some hotels have an added fee for EV charging. Some hotels don't charge extra for the EV charging. Many hotels don't have EV chargers available.

For some clarification:
Level 1 charging = 120 volts AC, 12 amps = 1.44 kVA = 1.44 kW nominal power.
Level 2 charging = 240 volts AC, up to 80 amps = up to 19.2 kVA = up to 19.2 kW nominal power.
DC Fast Charging = DC up to 1,000 volts, up to 1000 Amps = up to 1 MVA = up to 1 MW nominal power. At this time. This will increase as the standards evolve over time.

Level 1 chargers (technically the charger is built into the car, but that's a pedantic engineer concern) are slow, inefficient, and very common at homes and as part of a kit one brings with them in case they need to charge in odd places. These are cheap--you can get one for a couple hundred dollars if you're picky about the brand or $100 or so if you're willing to entrust your $50k car or $500k home to a non-UL electrical device. These are fine for longer stays or even at home if you drive less than about 10kWh worth of energy in a day (my Mustang can go >40 miles on 10 kWh; my Lightning can go around 30 miles on 10 kWh).

Level 2 chargers are the most common chargers (about 80% of publicly available chargers are Level 2). Almost every home owner with an EV eventually gets a Level 2 charger installed, usually they set it up to provide 32 or 48 Amps at 240 Volts (7.6 kW or 11.5 kW). These are the most common options at hotels. They can be "smart" (connected to the internet) or "networked" (part of a network and able to be set up to require payment--this is the common option for hotels). A smart L2 charger for home installation is around $250-$750 + labor, depending on options. A networked L2 charger for a business (hotel, for example) is often around $5k to $10k, depending on options. These are great for overnight stays. These are also great to have at shopping locations, dining locations, etc. Many parking garages and apartment buildings have L2 chargers available for their patrons, either for a cost or for free, depending on that business' decision-making process. Offering EV charging brings customers who might otherwise go somewhere else, just like many other kinds of offered perks attract customers.

DCFC are the only real option for fast charging when you're on a road trip and don't want to stop for several hours. They're expensive to install ($100k+++). They're expensive to maintain. The cost per kWh to the end user is high. The only "free" ones are generally in the form of charging credits that auto manufacturers offer to buyers as an incentive to purchase a car. About 20% of publicly accessible chargers in the US are DCFC.

 

[R1TVT]

Even if you dislike them like them, Dealer lots can be an excellent place to find chargers on a road trip, and sometimes DCFC chargers too