There needs to be more pull thru chargers for EV's too be good for charging. Removing the trailer is just a deal killer.
Range and Competitiveness
- Thread starter Silversoul
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I agree and by the time the Scout is realest there will be more. For me I can drop and rehitch my trailer in 5- 10 minutes so not a deal killer that's for sure.
I think for me, IF the harvester can just keep getting gas filled and you don't have to stop and charge the battery on the road, it'd be perfect. I charge at home and would use the 150 EV range for 90%+ of my miles, but then when I make a longer trip, just knowing I don't have to do gas+electric refueling, but can just keep adding gas would be fantastic.
I don't believe that would be possible but maybe others more in the know can correct me.
The problem is we don't know exactly how the EREV functionality of the range extender is intended to work in this instance. Largely because there really haven't been many EREV's yet.
But the way proposed to work above, is exactly the same Ram Ramcharger is intended to work, which will be coming to market before the Scout models.
That said, not everyone shares that belief. It is possible that it won't be possible to do that, and the generator will only be large enough to allow the battery to slowly deplete over time, thus requiring a recharge, AND a refuel to continue traveling.
Personally, I'm thinking its going to be more like the Ramcharger (where the generator can keep up with the electrical needs of the vehicle at speed on the highway). Both because the target market will be expecting it more (with the Ramcharger existing before it), and because that it should be cheaper than the alternative for them (engines and gas tanks are cheaper than huge batteries).
Guesswork:
Since we know the EV only range of the harvester and the BEV versions, and can guess at its efficiency, we can estimate the battery size of each.
If we assume that the Scouts will get ~2miles per KWh of battery in terms of efficiency (between the Rivian R1, and Hummer in efficiency, which I think makes sense based on size/looks/tires, and makes math easy).
If we know that the harvester model gets ~150 miles of EV range, then that means the harvester battery is ~75kwh in size.
And by the same token, if the largest battery version gets 350 miles of range, then that means ~175kwh of battery.
That also means that at 70mph on the highway, it would use about 35kwh (net) per hour (one hour of driving == 70 miles, and 2 mile per kwh used == 35kwh). Which works out to ~47hp worth of generator output.
For context, 25kw of power per hour from the generator would be in line with the BMW I3 REX, and way less than the Chevy Volt (which I believe was ~50kw). Both of which are significantly smaller vehicles. Personally don't think you'll see anything that small.
That said, I don't think the generator will be as big as the Ramcharger either. But, that might not be as big of a negative as it might look like. The Ramcharger has a 40-100% higher towing rating (14k lbs vs the 10k lbs on the Terra, and 7k lbs on the Traveler), and features 130-190kw 3.6L V6.
I'm still personally thinking we'll see something in the 75-115kw output range, but who knows. And I do think this is probably the single most interesting/anticipated detail that we are collectively waiting for details on. And I suspect we won't hear anything about it for another year at least, maybe more.
Well written Logan.
My short take difference between Harvester and Ramcharger.
Harvester will have Gas and Go. It's a must have, and the arguments against are pretty thin.
Ramcharger will push that further to Gas and Tow. It's nice, but not must have unless long distance towing is a central use case for you. Trade-off is significant packaging space used (loss of Frunk), long exhaust system routing, etc...
If you want to Tow something serious with Harvester you are going to need to keep recharging the battery in addition to adding gas, to boost the generator power.
My short take difference between Harvester and Ramcharger.
Harvester will have Gas and Go. It's a must have, and the arguments against are pretty thin.
Ramcharger will push that further to Gas and Tow. It's nice, but not must have unless long distance towing is a central use case for you. Trade-off is significant packaging space used (loss of Frunk), long exhaust system routing, etc...
If you want to Tow something serious with Harvester you are going to need to keep recharging the battery in addition to adding gas, to boost the generator power.
I am in marketing. Scout's statements about the Harvester's range include the verbage "500+ miles". The "+" is of course an intentional cue. In my opinion, there is a zero percent chance that the vehicle will not be able to actively charge the batteries while also providing power to the motors. I believe that the Harvester will have:
-- A mode where it and the batteries together are providing power to the motors at the same time
-- A mode where it will provide power exclusively to the motors without help from the batteries (for example totally depleted batteries)
-- A mode where it splits output by simultaneously powering the motors and charging the batteries
-- A mode where all power is directed at charging the batteries either while the batteries are providing power to the motors or while the vehicle is stationary.
Anybody see any engineering reason why the Harvester equipped Scout would not have any of these modes?
-- A mode where it and the batteries together are providing power to the motors at the same time
-- A mode where it will provide power exclusively to the motors without help from the batteries (for example totally depleted batteries)
-- A mode where it splits output by simultaneously powering the motors and charging the batteries
-- A mode where all power is directed at charging the batteries either while the batteries are providing power to the motors or while the vehicle is stationary.
Anybody see any engineering reason why the Harvester equipped Scout would not have any of these modes?
Cost, increased weight, complexity, service requirements and longer lead time to production could all be possible reasons.
(The inverse being lower cost, less weight, less materials, simplicity, easier maintenance and faster time to market).
But hypotheticals are hypothetical and all speculation of course.
(The inverse being lower cost, less weight, less materials, simplicity, easier maintenance and faster time to market).
But hypotheticals are hypothetical and all speculation of course.
It's pretty close to what I would expect. To be practically usable it will need to have capability to mix generator output and battery in/output.
Logan - very helpful! I am still getting my head around all this....
From what I have seen the Ram does have a limited range (but very high at almost 700 miles) so it is not completely unlimited "gas and go". Are you thinking because the Scout has lower tow max that it can possibly be "gas and go"?
The Ramcharger is limited in range by its gas tank(a big old 27gal one iirc), at 690 miles. It gets 142miles of EV range out of a 92kwh battery. And it is clearly stated that it will be “gas and go”.
I think the scout harvesters 500 mile quoted range means it’s gas tank is smaller than the ramchargers.
I’m personally optimistic for gas and go for unladen highway driving (not towing), but we’ll have to wait and see.
It needs that big of a gas tank to get that range the 3.6 V6 is thirsty, I own it now in my wrangler and get 16 mpg but I do mostly highway. In Range extender form where it may be less stressed it will probably be around 20 mpg for my guess.
Yeah, I'd expect something similar.
When in range extender mode I won't be expecting the Scout Harvesters to be wildly efficient either. I'm expecting something in the 18-30mpg range. With things like pure gas chevy silverados with the 2.7L 4 cylinder being ~22-24mpg, and being of roughly similar dimensions, I'm hopeful that the scouts could manage at least that, but its unknown how the EREVs really do in vehicles this large, at speed.
The reality is that 90-99% of the year I'd be EV only, but for those road trips, I realize I'll likely be paying for gas just like if I was driving a Tahoe, or at least something vaguely similar.
The Wrangler is an inefficient vehicle. The 4 cylinder only improves by 1 MPG.
I wouldn't expect the Harvester to do much better than the Ramcharger. EREVs will do better than regular full size pickups in Stop n Go, because they are hybrids. On the highway (where EREV MPG really matters), they could do worse. I wouldn't expect much more than 20 MPG on the highway.
Agreed.
I'm hopeful for mid 20's for mpg on the open road... but thats why my mpg estimate goes down to the teens, as I think what you said could very well be the case.
150 miles EV range for harvester model seems to be lower, would be nice to see 200 ideal ish range
Daily drives & commutes for US citizens sits at around ~40 miles per day.
For longer trips, you engage the Harvester to go up to 500.
If you need 200 / day, why not just get the pure EV which has 350?
For longer trips, you engage the Harvester to go up to 500.
If you need 200 / day, why not just get the pure EV which has 350?
Thank you for your input! While the average daily commute for many US citizens might be 40 miles, there are plenty of us who regularly drive much more. My comment about a 200-mile range EREV reflects my personal needs, not an attempt to downplay other configurations.
Having owned a Tesla in the past, I found the need to limit charging to 80% for battery health, combined with a real-world range often being less than advertised, made pure EVs less practical for me. An EREV with a higher electric range, like 150-200 miles, would better suit drivers who travel 80-100+ miles daily while offering flexibility for longer trips. It’s great to discuss different needs—thanks for the conversation!
So where does SM give in? They add harvester and gas users are happy. Now EV enthusiasts are upset. So now they say let’s add more battery and less gas and gas folks are mad and 89% of harvester buyers pay more for batteries they really don’t need. If you (generally speaking) are a one car family then perhaps it’s not right for you in either configuration. If you are a two car family then why not buy an ICE that’s your long haul and the Scout is a daily as an EV.
IMHO if you are commuting 75 miles or more a day, a giant brick on wheels is probably not the ideal vehicle-EV or hybrid. As I continue to learn from the forum, short of the future RAM I’m curious who offers a sub $60K EV that is as well done/designed/styled/…. And offers 350 mile/ 500 mile ranges. I’ll preface results by adding , based on experience I will Never buy another Ford or Chevy and the Hummer is outrageously priced. What does that leave in the EV, SUV segment? Maybe a hybrid Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4 are better answers. The CRV should get nearly 550 miles on a tank. 50 miles of pure electric.
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