What do you love or hate about other off-road vehicles

[SpaceEVDriver]

I do own one, but with a shorter bed, and you are correct, it isn't an issue in terms of weight distribution alone.

I was commenting on the off-road handling and capabilities of a longer-bed pick up truck and the characteristics of driving a longer bed truck off-road (ICE or EV). Most trails are not straight, which means more difficulty with maneuverability off-road or over more technical terrain with a longer wheelbase. I imagine that due to pure physics alone, even with equal weight distribution, a longer wheel base (even if only 10" longer) would equal a rougher ride and more pogo'ing (regardless of weight distribution).

I have never been off-roading in a longer wheel base truck with a long bed. Most trucks perform better off-road with shorter wheelbases, generally speaking, since they do provide better maneuverability and can offer better traction without adding weight over the rear axles, and offer the ability to clear obstacles that require better ramp-over angles.

I think we're agreeing with each other. Yes, smaller vehicles are generally better off-road. That's my reason for posting in this thread.

The Terra is specced to have a 149 inch wheelbase, which is larger than the Lightning, though the Terra is supposed to be shorter overall than the Lightning (good for approach and/or departure angles). The Lighnting is fine for forest service / fire roads, but it's not an off-roader and it has nothing to do with the drivetrain; it's all about size and weight. The Terra's wheelbase is 46 inches longer than the wheelbase of the 1989 Toyota pickup with a 6-foot bed, just slightly less than 5 feet longer than the Toyota FJ40, and more than 5 feet longer than the CJ-5. Both Scouts are specced to be 80 inches wide, which is as wide as the Suzuki Samurai's wheelbase. The Traveler is 42 inches longer than the Scout II and has a 20 inch longer wheelbase. The Scouts as-specced are just massive and won't be true off-roaders. They'll be fantastic on paved and gravel roads, but--IMO--they'll be too large and awkward to be good or even any fun on truly off-road trails.

The following are some of the vehicles I've off-roaded (with a "*" and in colored text) and have considered (black text). Green indicates my opinion of the best off-roading vehicles, purple means adequate on most trails, and red means some really nice trails are inaccessible to the vehicle. I have also off-roaded in much smaller vehicles like a Chevy Chevette, and larger vehicles like a couple dozen different pickup trucks, Ford Expeditions, Chevy Suburbans, a RWD Chevrolet C-60 flatbed 2-ton truck, and a pile of others--4wd isn't always necessary to climb up a mountain or into a canyon. In general, small size makes for a better off-roader. I would take a Prius on some roads I wouldn't take the Lightning.

Looking at the numbers, I now think the Maverick is actually on the large size for an off-roader, similar to the Tacoma; I've never looked at its numbers before now, just observed it from afar.

I don't think either the Scout Traveler or Terra are appropriately-sized for the kind of off-roading I like to do, thus my earlier answer of "I hate large vehicles for off-roading."

Vehicle	Width (inches)	Wheelbase (inches)	Length (inches)
* 1974 Jeep CJ-5	72	84	139
* 1975 Toyota Landcruiser FJ40	66	90	151
* 1982 Suzuki Samurai	61	80	135
* 1989 Toyota Pickup	67	103	175
* 1989 Toyota 4-Runner	67	103	175
* 1980 International Scout II	66	100	166
* 2010 Jeep Wrangler 2-Door	74	95	153
* 2012 Toyota Tundra DC	80	146	229
* 2007 Tacoma TRD-OR, SB, DC	75	128	208
* 2019 Tacoma TRD-OR, LB, DC	75	141	226
* 2023 Ford Lightning	80	146	233
2024 Ford Maverick	78	121	200
2024 Toyota 4-Runner	76	110	191
2024 Jeep Wrangler 2-Door	74	97	167
2024 Jeep Wrangler 4-Door	74	118	188
2024 Ford Bronco 4-Door	86	117	191
2027 Scout Terra	80	149	229
2027 Scout Traveler	80	120	208

 

[R1TVT]

I think we're agreeing with each other. Yes, smaller vehicles are generally better off-road. That's my reason for posting in this thread.

The Terra is specced to have a 149 inch wheelbase, which is larger than the Lightning, though the Terra is supposed to be shorter overall than the Lightning (good for approach and/or departure angles). The Lighnting is fine for forest service / fire roads, but it's not an off-roader and it has nothing to do with the drivetrain; it's all about size and weight. The Terra's wheelbase is 46 inches longer than the wheelbase of the 1989 Toyota pickup with a 6-foot bed, just slightly less than 5 feet longer than the Toyota FJ40, and more than 5 feet longer than the CJ-5. Both Scouts are specced to be 80 inches wide, which is as wide as the Suzuki Samurai's wheelbase. The Traveler is 42 inches longer than the Scout II and has a 20 inch longer wheelbase. The Scouts as-specced are just massive and won't be true off-roaders. They'll be fantastic on paved and gravel roads, but--IMO--they'll be too large and awkward to be good or even any fun on truly off-road trails.

The following are some of the vehicles I've off-roaded (with a "*" and in colored text) and have considered (black text). Green indicates my opinion of the best off-roading vehicles, purple means adequate on most trails, and red means some really nice trails are inaccessible to the vehicle. I have also off-roaded in much smaller vehicles like a Chevy Chevette, and larger vehicles like a couple dozen different pickup trucks, Ford Expeditions, Chevy Suburbans, a RWD Chevrolet C-60 flatbed 2-ton truck, and a pile of others--4wd isn't always necessary to climb up a mountain or into a canyon. In general, small size makes for a better off-roader. I would take a Prius on some roads I wouldn't take the Lightning.

Looking at the numbers, I now think the Maverick is actually on the large size for an off-roader, similar to the Tacoma; I've never looked at its numbers before now, just observed it from afar.

I don't think either the Scout Traveler or Terra are appropriately-sized for the kind of off-roading I like to do, thus my earlier answer of "I hate large vehicles for off-roading."

Vehicle	Width (inches)	Wheelbase (inches)	Length (inches)
* 1974 Jeep CJ-5	72	84	139
* 1975 Toyota Landcruiser FJ40	66	90	151
* 1982 Suzuki Samurai	61	80	135
* 1989 Toyota Pickup	67	103	175
* 1989 Toyota 4-Runner	67	103	175
* 1980 International Scout II	66	100	166
* 2010 Jeep Wrangler 2-Door	74	95	153
* 2012 Toyota Tundra DC	80	146	229
* 2007 Tacoma TRD-OR, SB, DC	75	128	208
* 2019 Tacoma TRD-OR, LB, DC	75	141	226
* 2023 Ford Lightning	80	146	233
2024 Ford Maverick	78	121	200
2024 Toyota 4-Runner	76	110	191
2024 Jeep Wrangler 2-Door	74	97	167
2024 Jeep Wrangler 4-Door	74	118	188
2024 Ford Bronco 4-Door	86	117	191
2027 Scout Terra	80	149	229
2027 Scout Traveler	80	120	208

Agreed - Yes, 100%... Not that dissimilar from getting a boat - all trade-offs. Given the time I need to worry about true off-road capabilities, I will take the dimensions of the Terra (with 1 foot extra in the bed compared to the R1T). If i am in the woods or on a trail, its def not Moab, and it is just to reach a destination for something else like skiing or MTB'ing. Otherwise my 4X4 needs are just for fishing on a beach or driving in the dunes where the longer wheelbase is fine.

 

[TerraH]

I would like to see (literally) visual feedback from external sensors all around the cabin of the vehicle. Cameras are great, but then I'm focusing only on the center console and not incorporating my peripheral vision when backing. I have an 09 silverado ltz, when backing up it gives me an audible beep but also has 3 LED's on the right rear pillar. I can swivel my head around, using mirrors and looking out the windows when backing but still have a visual/ audible guide for the things I can't see. I also like that I can turn those sensors off, like when towing.

I would also like to see a partnership with Onyx Off Road or at least a dedicated app built-in to the infotainment system.

 

[ScoutD]

Love my Rivian R1S, but one of the things that always worries me is the weight when I'm offroad. Hard to tread lightly when you are coming in at 6500lb before you have loaded up your gear...

 

[Fltndb]

While we often see requests online for single cab, longer beds, that appears to be a small, but vocal minority.

The only midsize that still has 2 seat single cab is the Toyota Tacoma, with a single row XtraCab, and a longer bed, but almost no one buys those, even though it will cost >$2000 to get the bigger two row cab, and shorter bed. You would think as the only single cab, midsize left, buyers would flock to it, but there is no evidence that is happening...

If enough people don't put their money where their mouth is, those options just disappear.

The reality is that modern pickups are Family SUVs with a small box on the back, and only an insignificant portion of buyers want a family SUV that seats only 2 people.

Very true! When I bought my truck, I insisted on a 6.5 ft. bed, need a real bed!

 

[WhatDayJob]

Ok Scouts,

Our designers and engineers are looking for some more feedback from all of you and this time it is on:

What do you like or dislike about other off-road vehicles?



Thanks in advance for your opinions!

- Jamie

Likes (probably seconding a lot of the other responders):
- Metal over plastic whenever possible, especially on exterior-facing components that will get trashed from environmental friction.
- Interchangable components - be consistent with sizing, measurements, and parts that are regularly replaced. Finding new pieces, or figuring out whether something is metric or imperial, or having a custom-sized bolt-hole or widget, all of these are frustrating.
- Mods: Ties into the previous bullet. We want to be able to add off-the-shelf components to customize our toys as we see fit. My idea of the perfect winch is probably different from the next person's, so a standardized mount would work for both of us.
- Skid plates that provide protection where it's needed, without adding a gross amount of weight. This isn't just an off-road thing, the roads where I live are sketchy at best, and covered in massive ice blocks for seven months a year.
- Durabilty trumps a lot of fancy design considerations. Where I live, parts can be hard to come by, there's probably not a qualified repair shop, and the environment takes a toll on everything. Even the nice days have pretty intense solar radiation at 10,000 feet.


Dislikes:
- Easily damaged cosmetics, or painted components that are hard to color match if they get scratched or damaged.
- How hard is it for me to access something if/when it breaks. How many pieces do I have to take off to get to what I want to swap out?
- Dust and water are the enemy. If something won't function when dust/water gets in it, or if it prevents something like a touchscreen from functioning, find an alternative.


Challenges:
- Finding the right balance between daily driver and off-road toy. I live in the Colorado Rockies, and my pickup still spends more time on the pavement than on dirt (more than I care to admit anyhow). Daily, I either don't drive much, or I'm on the highway for two hours.
- For an EV, how do we maximize the battery life when we're off-road? The Harvester will reduce some range anxiety, but I'd love to be able to get a couple days out into the woods, stay there in the cold while hunting, and then not have to worry that I've got the juice to get home. I imagine battery life will be pretty variable depending on the demands of the terrain, so some way to know that if I spend 50% of my juice getting out, I'll have enough to get home.

 

[Mousehunter]

Offroad can mean different things to different people at different times. 4wd does not really mean real off road. My primary hate is one that Scout will have extreme difficultly addressing. Heavy vehicles can have huge off road difficulties in certain situations. Take my F250. It has lockers, torque, clearance - but to handle it's weight, it has to have suspension that will jar your backbone out of your body, and practically launch items out of the bed after a bump. Forbid even thinking about driving it on soft ground or sand. I can get it stuck in places that my Tacoma does not even notice. But until we get through a few more major generations of battery tech, there will be no light weight off road EV's - it is more than 10 years out, maybe/probably more than my lifetime. Right now, it can be done I guess - but with huge sacrifices in range and speed - but it can be done with a community vehicle (and I am not even suggesting Scout do that with these offerings - but sure, someone might want an EV SxS).

 

[R1TVT]

My 2500 was equally jarring - mostly b/c the suspension had to support a large payload in the bed, and due to longer wheelbase. I did not even attempt to off-road in that thing (maybe a little fire roading and farm roading) and it only drove well with a bed full of mulch, firewood or rocks.

 

[Rampy]

I'm envisioning a long wheel-base with a light, long bed making for a poor off-road experience - I have a vision of long-bed pogo'ing up and down the trail and the light rear end slipping out (with poor traction) going up hill.

Had a 97 F250 with the 7.3L diesel & only added a Detroit Locker & BFG/MT’s on the stock suspension

Attended 2 Easter Jeep safari’s in Moab, did several 5-6 rated trails each trip and only dragged the hitch a few times & did trails that we were told it was impossible to do in a F250

Have done Black Bear in that F250 as well as a Raptor & lots of Moab trails in the Raptor

It’s more about knowing how to drive & your vehicles weak areas and strong points than the size

 

[Rampy]

Offroad can mean different things to different people at different times. 4wd does not really mean real off road. My primary hate is one that Scout will have extreme difficultly addressing. Heavy vehicles can have huge off road difficulties in certain situations. Take my F250. It has lockers, torque, clearance - but to handle it's weight, it has to have suspension that will jar your backbone out of your body, and practically launch items out of the bed after a bump. Forbid even thinking about driving it on soft ground or sand. I can get it stuck in places that my Tacoma does not even notice. But until we get through a few more major generations of battery tech, there will be no light weight off road EV's - it is more than 10 years out, maybe/probably more than my lifetime. Right now, it can be done I guess - but with huge sacrifices in range and speed - but it can be done with a community vehicle (and I am not even suggesting Scout do that with these offerings - but sure, someone might want an EV SxS).

Look at Carli suspension, I’m running a EVenture with Carli’s full catalog on my F-250 and it’s way different, like 75-80% of what a Raptor can do. Have absolutely no problems hanging with raptors in the desert now

It’s still a beast but way better riding on and off road

 

[Harris005]

own a quad motor R1T with 20" AT tires. here's what like and dislike

LIKE

• swiss army knife vehicle can handle most offroad trails, overlanding, and great on road ride to get there and back
• amazing ground clearance, love the air suspension to vary height
• quad motors and instant torque are insane
• approach, departure and breakover clearance very good with raised suspension
• underbody shield gives peace of mind
• built in air compressor is clutch
• insane water fording depth capability
• powered tonneau is nice, manual is good too - built in rails to support these are clutch.
• storage options make it super useful to store gear everywhere
• love all the cameras to give you visibility
• auto-leveling is great for camping

DISLIKE

• camera quality sucks on 1 gen R1Ts, hard to see details. also need camera under the front of the vehicle.
• even though there is a motor at each wheel, algorithms have trouble with certain offroad situations.
• needs better low end torque control (probably related to the previous point)
• needs low speed, offroad cruise control
• no grab handles sucks (yes it has overhead ones but they are useless)
• physical buttons would be better for ease of use than touchscreen to access certain functions
• no space for full size spare on R1S (mention this because i am interested in the Traveler)
• air compressor overheats, probably needs larger version.
• suspension is loud. no engine makes wind noise more noticeable. needs better NVH.
• very few aftermarket options for all sorts of accessories

I do second the camera quality being important. I don't have experiance with R1T's, but there is a huge difference in many of the vehicles I hop in. I do hope cameras are more on the HD side than the tube tv.

 

[Harris005]

I would like to see (literally) visual feedback from external sensors all around the cabin of the vehicle. Cameras are great, but then I'm focusing only on the center console and not incorporating my peripheral vision when backing. I have an 09 silverado ltz, when backing up it gives me an audible beep but also has 3 LED's on the right rear pillar. I can swivel my head around, using mirrors and looking out the windows when backing but still have a visual/ audible guide for the things I can't see. I also like that I can turn those sensors off, like when towing.

I would also like to see a partnership with Onyx Off Road or at least a dedicated app built-in to the infotainment sy

I would like to see (literally) visual feedback from external sensors all around the cabin of the vehicle. Cameras are great, but then I'm focusing only on the center console and not incorporating my peripheral vision when backing. I have an 09 silverado ltz, when backing up it gives me an audible beep but also has 3 LED's on the right rear pillar. I can swivel my head around, using mirrors and looking out the windows when backing but still have a visual/ audible guide for the things I can't see. I also like that I can turn those sensors off, like when towing.

I would also like to see a partnership with Onyx Off Road or at least a dedicated app built-in to the infotainment system.

OnX has been a discussion topic in the past that you might search. I too think this could be a cool feature. I will say at a minimum it is an AC and AA display feature regardless for the easy button for Scout Motors.

 

[MidwestCastAway]

Owned a 2020 RAM 1500 Limited and a 2020 Land Rover Defender HSE, now a 2022 Ford F-150 Limited Hybrid. Going back, 2011 F-150, 2007 Honda Ridgeline, Mitsubishi Montero, Toyota 4Runner, Isuzu VehiCross, Isuzu Rodeo, Nissan Pathfinder..... picking up on a theme, lol?

I must say, an air-ride suspension that can be adjusted in real-time is hands-down awesome. Used it way more than I thought I would, for daily driving in inclement weather, hooking up/dropping a trailer, and obviously off-roading. More comfortable and more capable. Yes they break, but they're not overly complex or difficult to fix. Not much different than shocks and/or coil over spring.

wind noise at highway speed sucks, it was the primary reason I got rid of Defender. watch the angle of the front windshield.

Ford doesn't insulate the roof for rain noise. anything more than a sprinkle and regular conversation is impossible. don't make the same mistake.

if you're going to offer a premium stereo, make it premium. Don't just put a brand name on it, actually make it awesome (LR Meridian system is legit - RAM and Ford, not at all, though they're happy to charge more for what they give)

rolling tonneau covers, standard or as an option, yes please.

love to see options for the bed area: flip out bed-extender, swing out tool boxes, slats for dividers, lighting, drawers, carpet, etc. And I'm not suggesting that Scout needs to jump into the tailgate design war, but I will say that the Ridgeline swing down or out design, followed by RAM's split swing out or down design, were rather awesome. The ability to stand right up against the bed made loading, unloading, and reaching things so much easier. I like Ford's embedded step, though I'll readily admit other mechanisms can be just as convenient. Can you say lowered air suspension with a swing out tailgate? Boom!

full-size spare is a necessity for trucks, otherwise towing or offroad isn't really feasible. Too much risk.

Driver passenger side mirror with an area of wider view for seeing traffic while towing. To a lesser extent, same for passenger side.

Off-road, electronic low speed control. Could rock-crawl the Defender at 1-2mph without having to think about throttle. Game-changer.

Like camera options to see the bed of truck AND the hitch area while driving. Can verify bed contents are secure and trailer are hooked up properly without having to stop. Seems silly, but considering I'll inevitably think about and want to double check every single time I'm towing or carrying, it's a really nice feature to build into the software. The cameras are there, after all, just enable them for access/use while moving.

heated and ventilated/cooling seats. I know, I'm spoiled. But I'll never go back.

Ford has air-bags in the front seats for adjusting comfort. They offer a mode that inflates/deflates them in patterns every few seconds, effectively offering customizable seat massage. After long camping, hiking and/or fishing trips, it's heaven on the drive home.

I could probably keep going, but this is a good start.

 

[eightOne]

Dislike from most off-roaders/soft-roaders I've driven: Crazy nose dive under braking.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Didn't read all of these responses but since we're talking off-road, will we have the ability to lift the Scout up 4, 6in for more off-roading experiences?

Ok, I know this isn’t what you mean by lift, but I remember reading a readers digest from 1942 about the then new Willy’s Jeep. When it got stuck straddling a log, 2 guys (probably soldiers with a good amount of upper body strength) were able to lift it up and over and continue on their way. I suppose that’s too much to ask these days?

 

[DBHowe]

I hate the manual windows, AM radio, rattles and squeaks, lack of technology, one-zone heating, lack of rear window wiper..... WAIT A MINUTE! I just described my 1980 Diesel Scout II!

 

[DBHowe]

Without an engine in the front, can you allow for a much tighter turning radius? Some "white knuckler" type switch backs require a multi point maneuver even in the old Scout II. Since the wheelbase is longer on the new Scout, it would be great if its turning radius was that of a two-door Jeep. (More an issue with the frame I guess.)

I love that you are not going all black and gray plastic inside. The legroom in the backseat is nice too.

 

[TaconicBear]

I hate the manual windows, AM radio, rattles and squeaks, lack of technology, one-zone heating, lack of rear window wiper..... WAIT A MINUTE! I just described my 1980 Diesel Scout II!

Sounds like a list of things to love Maybe someday, along about the 3rd Edition of Scout EV there will be a truly retro offering that takes us back to the pure love of driving a vehicle (vs. a 4WD computer). I'll wait, but not give up my 80s and 800s in the meanwhile.

 

[LastDayScout]

Sounds like a list of things to love Maybe someday, along about the 3rd Edition of Scout EV there will be a truly retro offering that takes us back to the pure love of driving a vehicle (vs. a 4WD computer). I'll wait, but not give up my 80s and 800s in the meanwhile.

There is room for both

 

[DBHowe]

Sounds like a list of things to love Maybe someday, along about the 3rd Edition of Scout EV there will be a truly retro offering that takes us back to the pure love of driving a vehicle (vs. a 4WD computer). I'll wait, but not give up my 80s and 800s in the meanwhile.

That's funny. I didn't think about that. "Pure love of driving a vehicle."

One summer, about 11,000 up in the Rockies I was climbing up a trail with a load of my fishing buddies. It had been drizzling most of the day and the hill we had to climb was more a series of pools than a trail. As we climbed up I worked the transmission and weaved my way up the hill, around, over and through some of the pools of water. To me, I was just having fun and enjoying the challenge. When we made the top and back up to more solid ground, my friend running shotgun said, "You really know how to drive this thing!" We laughed. But I guess that's one of the reasons we fall in love with Scouts. They become a capable friend, like a good ol' hunting dog, that you can count on when you find yourself in a rough spot. They may have a bit of a limp or even be missing one eye, but you still love 'em.