Having owned an i3, what he's referring to is that in the US, the gas generator could ONLY come on when the main traction battery was basically dead. The gas generator did not put out enough power to drag the car along at 70MPH up hills, resulting in some dangerous situations. the options are to either have the generator start charging while the main battery is still at a higher state of charge (say, it sees you're taking a long trip and kicks on at 80% SOC, so even if it's losing slowly, it would bascially take hours and hours to get to 0% SOC. OR, have a larger harvester than can keep up with the energy demands of the vehicle, even when the battery is fully used up.
Speculation Alert - possible Harvester Engine Choices
- Thread starter mike_scout
- Start date
-
From all of us at Scout Motors, welcome to the Scout Community! We created this community to provide Scout vehicle owners, enthusiasts, and curiosity seekers with a place to engage in discussion, suggestions, stories, and connections. Supportive communities are sometimes hard to find, but we're determined to turn this into one.
Additionally, Scout Motors wants to hear your feedback and speak directly to the rabid community of owners as unique as America. We'll use the Scout Community to deliver news and information on events and launch updates directly to the group. Although the start of production is anticipated in 2026, many new developments and milestones will occur in the interim. We plan to share them with you on this site and look for your feedback and suggestions.
How will the Scout Community be run? Think of it this way: this place is your favorite local hangout. We want you to enjoy the atmosphere, talk to people who share similar interests, request and receive advice, and generally have an enjoyable time. The Scout Community should be a highlight of your day. We want you to tell stories, share photos, spread your knowledge, and tell us how Scout can deliver great products and experiences. Along the way, Scout Motors will share our journey to production with you.
Scout is all about respect. We respect our heritage. We respect the land and outdoors. We respect each other. Every person should feel safe, included, and welcomed in the Scout Community. Being kind and courteous to the other forum members is non-negotiable. Friendly debates are welcomed and often produce great outcomes, but we don't want things to get too rowdy. Please take a moment to consider what you post, especially if you think it may insult others. We'll do our best to encourage friendly discourse and to keep the discussions flowing.
So, welcome to the Scout Community! We encourage you to check back regularly as we plan to engage our members, share teasers, and participate in discussions. The world needs Scouts™. Let's get going.
We are Scout Motors.
That was not my experience in our 2015 i3. I could hold 70 on a fairly level freeway.Stop sitting in your basement and imagining. Go out and drive one
As an owner of HEV and BEV, I can tell you when the battery charge level is low, the performance is definitely degrading. For most BEV, when battery SOC (state of charge) is low, it will go into turtle mode. TFL did test on i3, and it won't accelerate past 30mph with its gas generator at full power
It's not about range, it's about convenience, and IMO, the massive failure it will be trying to force customers to change behavior to deal with limitations, they don't have in their current vehicles.
Many want the EREV specifically so it will be exactly as convenient as gas cars.
It should just work like other PHEVs/EREVs, in that you can just keep filling it with gas and driving, making them just as convenient as gas cars.
Requiring that an EREV be charged up to keep driving on gas is one seriously inconvenient limitation.
So SM will need to convince every customer to change behavior for their product, when they can choose to either just keep using their current, more convenient product, or even buy other PHEVs/EREVS that do deliver the convenience of gas cars
The biggest oddity in this part of the discussion, is why are you and many others assuming SM will make it's EREV significantly worse than all the other EREVs/PHEVs that came before?
I don’t know where you drive but I cover 700mi in about 10 hours, with gas stops. I don’t want to worry about whether I can find a charger or not when I’m in BFE West Texas( or New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, etc.). I can always find gas. I’ve had a great 10 years with a series hybrid that lets me drive electric around town and gas when I hit the road. Judging by the take rate, most people agree with that approach.
Just to offer a different angle based on some of my personal experiences. Here’s some random thoughts that might explain how people use vehicles in different ways and in different environments and why they are interested in certain features/abilities that are absurd or unneeded from other people’s perspective:
- We quite often take trips across a good portion of the country. One of our most common routes is 1100+ miles (16 hours minimum if everything goes smooth with no wind, not towing and driving at the speed limit. 18.5 to 20 hours if towing, 77 hours if towing in headwinds - okay maybe 77 is an ever-so-slight exaggeration but headwinds for hours on end can be exhausting) one way.
- Speed limits in our area are 80mph, not 55 or 60mph.
- Headwinds are common.
- Temperatures aren’t extreme, but in the immediate area it’s not uncommon to see 115 degees Fahrenheit in the summer or zero Fahrenheit in the winter.
With our Tundra and toy hauler on our longer trips, we needed to stop about every 150 miles for fuel. It’s annoying to stop so often, but we’d stop for about 5 minutes to fuel up and get back on the road so it still worked for us and we could make our full 1100+ mile trip in two days while towing. Things that swirl around my mind are charging on such a trip. The last time I was in a Tesla on a cross-country trip, our charging stops were up to 40 minutes or more depending on several factors. So, if we say I’m towing with an EV that has 350 miles range I’d have to guess I’d still (hopefully) get that same 150 miles range and have to stop roughly 7.33 times to charge if I use rough math. If those stops are 20 to 40 minutes each…now we’re talking another 2.4 to 4.8 hours added to the trip if all goes well and I’m not waiting for a spot at a charger (this has happened to us) and assuming no chargers are down. Adding another 5 hours to the trip possibly means that we can’t make that trip in two days most likely unless we want those long days to be even longer. Days off of work are precious and few and this would cut into those, making it where we would have fewer trips each year. Now, I have to remind myself I’m not factoring in the annoyance and time lost with unhitching and hitching back up likely every time I charge. So, range is a factor for our family and so are many other pieces of the puzzle. Lots to consider.
Anyway… I don’t know, I’m rambling and this is getting unnecessarily long. Still…I just think that maybe people may not realize just how differently other people use their vehicles and that they also use them in different environments. That’s what I’m attempting to express. This is why some people look at a 300 mile range EV as not fitting into their life as well as it does for others. I’m sure someone will say just get vehicles that serve each of the purposes more directly or the common “just get a diesel if you’re towing”. I would love to have a dedicated tow vehicle, and a dedicated trail/adventuring rig, and a dedicated daily/errand vehicle, etc. The reality is I cannot afford multiple vehicles and I need a single do-all vehicle.
- We quite often take trips across a good portion of the country. One of our most common routes is 1100+ miles (16 hours minimum if everything goes smooth with no wind, not towing and driving at the speed limit. 18.5 to 20 hours if towing, 77 hours if towing in headwinds - okay maybe 77 is an ever-so-slight exaggeration but headwinds for hours on end can be exhausting) one way.
- Speed limits in our area are 80mph, not 55 or 60mph.
- Headwinds are common.
- Temperatures aren’t extreme, but in the immediate area it’s not uncommon to see 115 degees Fahrenheit in the summer or zero Fahrenheit in the winter.
With our Tundra and toy hauler on our longer trips, we needed to stop about every 150 miles for fuel. It’s annoying to stop so often, but we’d stop for about 5 minutes to fuel up and get back on the road so it still worked for us and we could make our full 1100+ mile trip in two days while towing. Things that swirl around my mind are charging on such a trip. The last time I was in a Tesla on a cross-country trip, our charging stops were up to 40 minutes or more depending on several factors. So, if we say I’m towing with an EV that has 350 miles range I’d have to guess I’d still (hopefully) get that same 150 miles range and have to stop roughly 7.33 times to charge if I use rough math. If those stops are 20 to 40 minutes each…now we’re talking another 2.4 to 4.8 hours added to the trip if all goes well and I’m not waiting for a spot at a charger (this has happened to us) and assuming no chargers are down. Adding another 5 hours to the trip possibly means that we can’t make that trip in two days most likely unless we want those long days to be even longer. Days off of work are precious and few and this would cut into those, making it where we would have fewer trips each year. Now, I have to remind myself I’m not factoring in the annoyance and time lost with unhitching and hitching back up likely every time I charge. So, range is a factor for our family and so are many other pieces of the puzzle. Lots to consider.
Anyway… I don’t know, I’m rambling and this is getting unnecessarily long. Still…I just think that maybe people may not realize just how differently other people use their vehicles and that they also use them in different environments. That’s what I’m attempting to express. This is why some people look at a 300 mile range EV as not fitting into their life as well as it does for others. I’m sure someone will say just get vehicles that serve each of the purposes more directly or the common “just get a diesel if you’re towing”. I would love to have a dedicated tow vehicle, and a dedicated trail/adventuring rig, and a dedicated daily/errand vehicle, etc. The reality is I cannot afford multiple vehicles and I need a single do-all vehicle.
Yes, because
1. towing is very inconvenient given currently available charging infrastructure.
2. Ramcharger Rev sets 680M as a goal. You have to be competitive.
3. The whole point of range extension is range extension.
Speaking for myself, below is to explain my focus on the Harvester vs pure EV.
Totally agree that 80% of my driving is my 8 mile roundtrip commute to work, no brainer for pure EV even without charging stations at the office.
But for the other 20% of my driving I am accustomed to being able to drive about 4 hours at a time, stop for 5-10 minutes, then drive another 4 hours - this usually involved burning down to half a tank, topping off at each stop, averaging 250-300 miles per leg.
Now I used to live in SoCal with family in the Midwest so I was routinely making a 1,500 mile each-way trip. When towing this ends up more 3-ish hours at a clip. But I also love to camp/overland and most of those trips are anywhere from 200 to 800 miles away.
I don't expect a 700 mile range in any mode for a vehicle being represented as 'targeting' a 500-ish combined range EV/EREV.
I understand that is an ideal range, no trailer, etc. When towing I think a 20-25% hit seems reasonable, so call it 350-400 when towing - that is the sweet spot for me and based on reviewing actual range numbers people have achieved with similar trailers in R1S as an example I think this is achievable.
All that to say I used to drive to about 50% fuel, stop long enough to refuel and use the restroom or grab a quick bite for the road and continue on - my objective being to get somewhere.
In EV mode, a 350 mile base range would look maybe like 280-ish miles when towing, so on the surface that looks roughly equivalent to my experience with gas - for the first leg. That would then take 20-30 minutes to charge back to 80%, but then I am going to get 80% of 80%, so more like 220-ish, basically making each leg almost an hour shorter than before. This leaves me not with half my available range, but maybe 5%, while also doubling the time required for each stop.
My trip earlier this year to Colorado would take an extra hour and half or so each way assuming I get best case charging at each stop and not needing to go 10-20 minutes off route to find a supercharger as an example - broken station, slow charging etc. could all totally derail that and that still appears to occur a lot based on the pro-EV trip review Youtube videos I have watched.
Harvester, assuming it maintains full EV performance on the generator (towing, speed, etc.,) with the battery depleted to a point the range extender comes on makes literally all of those concerns go away - that is my real world concern.
Totally agree that 80% of my driving is my 8 mile roundtrip commute to work, no brainer for pure EV even without charging stations at the office.
But for the other 20% of my driving I am accustomed to being able to drive about 4 hours at a time, stop for 5-10 minutes, then drive another 4 hours - this usually involved burning down to half a tank, topping off at each stop, averaging 250-300 miles per leg.
Now I used to live in SoCal with family in the Midwest so I was routinely making a 1,500 mile each-way trip. When towing this ends up more 3-ish hours at a clip. But I also love to camp/overland and most of those trips are anywhere from 200 to 800 miles away.
I don't expect a 700 mile range in any mode for a vehicle being represented as 'targeting' a 500-ish combined range EV/EREV.
I understand that is an ideal range, no trailer, etc. When towing I think a 20-25% hit seems reasonable, so call it 350-400 when towing - that is the sweet spot for me and based on reviewing actual range numbers people have achieved with similar trailers in R1S as an example I think this is achievable.
All that to say I used to drive to about 50% fuel, stop long enough to refuel and use the restroom or grab a quick bite for the road and continue on - my objective being to get somewhere.
In EV mode, a 350 mile base range would look maybe like 280-ish miles when towing, so on the surface that looks roughly equivalent to my experience with gas - for the first leg. That would then take 20-30 minutes to charge back to 80%, but then I am going to get 80% of 80%, so more like 220-ish, basically making each leg almost an hour shorter than before. This leaves me not with half my available range, but maybe 5%, while also doubling the time required for each stop.
My trip earlier this year to Colorado would take an extra hour and half or so each way assuming I get best case charging at each stop and not needing to go 10-20 minutes off route to find a supercharger as an example - broken station, slow charging etc. could all totally derail that and that still appears to occur a lot based on the pro-EV trip review Youtube videos I have watched.
Harvester, assuming it maintains full EV performance on the generator (towing, speed, etc.,) with the battery depleted to a point the range extender comes on makes literally all of those concerns go away - that is my real world concern.
You must be towing a small trailer. Towing anything large reduces range of ICE or EV 50%. So that 680 mile Ramcharger REV range fully topped up EV is really 350, and after a fill subsequent runs are 275 miles due to the depleted charger. At 70mph that's every four hours for a gas fill. Reasonable given one's' belly and one's bladder. Any requirement to stop for more than that isn't going to fly.
Agreed. My experience has always been right around 50% reduction when towing with a variety of trucks (gas, not diesel) and trailers.
Planning to buy an Opus Lite early next year, low profile, about 2,500 lbs - seen Rivian R1S tow it with about an 18% range hit if memory serves.
Sounds logical with that weight and profile. Makes sense now.
Love that picture.
I’m trying to not get sidetracked, but does that Opus Lite have a bathroom? That’s always our family’s issue - having some semblance of a restroom with us on our adventures.
To go with the above notes on saving time:
The appeal of the Scout/Harvester for me is time savings, and I value my time ~$500/hr. Being able to plug in at home regularly, not having to stop for gas ever, saves me time/money. On the flip side, adding a few hours stopping for gas AND charging to each longer trip costs me thousands of dollars each year in my time. I'm greedy, I want the best of both worlds, being able to save time/money each day, and again on trips where I rarely need to stop for anything. I'm more than happy to pay higher maintenance costs for the Harvester for that convenience.
Less time with gas and charging means more time with family, friends and doing what I enjoy!
The appeal of the Scout/Harvester for me is time savings, and I value my time ~$500/hr. Being able to plug in at home regularly, not having to stop for gas ever, saves me time/money. On the flip side, adding a few hours stopping for gas AND charging to each longer trip costs me thousands of dollars each year in my time. I'm greedy, I want the best of both worlds, being able to save time/money each day, and again on trips where I rarely need to stop for anything. I'm more than happy to pay higher maintenance costs for the Harvester for that convenience.
Less time with gas and charging means more time with family, friends and doing what I enjoy!
If it has that convenience. Otherwise there are alternatives.
This more closely aligns with my needs/expectations.
The specific use case we have in mind is simple. Its a 900 mile one way/one day trip. Its about 12 hours of drive time. A normal trip is ~2-3 stops of 5-15min (I've timed it, curious how it would change if we had an EV). Any delays, and it starts becoming less and less feasible to do in one day. Which then tacks on hotel costs, and more time off of work, or cutting into trip time.
If the charging speeds were high enough, and the charging infrastructure available/reliable enough, I'd be all for the BEV version. But given the routes we travel (Rural WA, OR, ID, UT), I'm not certain that we'll have the best charging experience there over the course of the next 5-10 years, which is what drove me to look at the Harvester.
Personally, I honestly don't need the total range to be much more than 300-350 miles on gas, as by then we're all wanting bathroom stops anyway. We do lots of miles in a day, mostly because the speed limit is 80mph much of the way, not because we somehow have bionic bladders.
My ideal (maybe its a "request"?) is for it to be a "gas and go" style EREV for at least normal highway operation in the mountains. IMO, if the EREV version required a charge + fuel up for each stop at 500 miles, that would feel strange, and make me think about if I want the BEV version or not. Hopefully we have plenty of time to decide once we get details on how it will be implemented.
What attracts me about the Harvester is the ability to leverage the power and torque of an EV with the ability to stay off grid for basically as long as I want as long as I can find fuel.
My ideal retirement trip is to drive from Colorado to Tahoe on dirt for as much of the way as possible, with stops for hiking, biking, sightseeing, etc along the way. There are vast stretches across the Great Basin where not only won't there be any charging, but there will be few places to fill a fuel tank. That's the extreme, but more likely use cases for me are things like weekends on the Alpine Loop, on Grand Mesa, Rio Grande headwaters, etc, which I do now, and those take about a tank and a half of diesel round-trip from home, in a 5000lb SUV that gets 25-27 mpg on the freeway.
Being able to use a range extender to offset some rate of discharge and/or recharge overnight while parked at camp is ideal.
If all I did was day trips to side country off road parks, then a pure EV would be good enough. But that's not how I use my current vehicle. Someday, maybe these 1,000-mile-per-charge solid state batteries will be a thing, but until they are - range extenders are what I'll look for.
Honestly, I don't care about being "green." I have an EV as my daily because I wanted to give one a try and learn how to practically use them in daily life, they're a hoot when you drop the hammer, and running costs are next to nothing. The advantages of instant peak torque from 0 RPM in offroading situations are clear, but they suffer from the same off-road range issues as an ICE engine getting 2-10 mpg on steep, muddy, rocky, loose trails, and you can't carry a Jerry can full of electrons with you.
I don't need a full-sized engine to give me infinite range - I'll take a small, efficient jenny that just helps me get more miles for my electrons (500 real-world miles on the Interstate is good), and the lower maintenance costs that come with that vs something full sized like a Ramcharger 3.6L V-6. I'd love it if the Harvester engine were user-serviceable as well - make the spark plugs easy to get to, give me easy access to flush coolant and change the oil and fuel filter, without having to get the interior of the vehicle dirty.
This is exactly what I would expect.
This might be a user-selectable mode - you could drive in a pure EV mode for most around-town trips, but if you know you're going on a road trip or off-road, you select the appropriate mode, the Harvester kicks on, and off you go.
This is it. This is how I was thinking it should be handled. Just didn't come to my mind as well as you put it.
My question is, what happens if you're on EV only mode for like a really extended period of time. Since you plug in every night?
Will there be a gas maintenance mode so that it doesn't get all gunked up?
Similar threads
- Sticky
