Speculation Alert - possible Harvester Engine Choices

[MountainDad]

I think if stationary the onboard generator can recharge the battery if drained, but as an extender I doubt if the generator can move the vehicle once battery fully drained.

I feel the Ram charger with that big V6 may be able to achieve this - perhaps something like a non turbo boxster 4 will do same?

Here is what Car and Driver says (emphasis mine), which I personally consider a credible source:

A series hybrid is much simpler in concept. Whenever more power is needed than the battery can supply, a gasoline engine switches on to power a generator that recharges the pack. The key here is that the engine torque only powers the generator. It's not mechanically connected to the wheels, which are powered only by electric motors.

This is the setup used by diesel-electric railroad locomotives. It's best at steady vehicle speeds, where the engine can operate most efficiently at preset engine speeds. But the range of power needs of a passenger road vehicle spans more than an order of magnitude from steady-speed cruising to maximum acceleration, and that can be hard on batteries—meaning series hybrids usually require higher battery capacity than conventional hybrids.

Few series hybrid passenger vehicles have been sold in the States: the BMW i3 REx, which added a range-extending two-cylinder engine to the i3 battery-electric model; the Fisker Karma, as well as its successors the Karma Revero and GS-6 (all sleek four-door luxury sedans); and soon, the Ram 1500 Ramcharger full-size pickup truck.

The Ramcharger's 3.6-liter engine powers a 174-hp generator that's used solely to recharge the battery. After the battery runs out of energy, the 27-gallon gas tank provides enough energy to power the Ram for 545 more miles.

...Whether shoppers will understand this is debatable. Salespeople will undoubtedly struggle with the "Plug in daily, use gasoline for longer trips" message—and some owners may end up plugging in very little, if at all.

 

[Rampy]

How does regulation work? It influences the supply side only, by dictating how much of what can be approved for sale.

When you mandate a certain schedule that requires a certain progressively higher corporate average fuel economy number, then automakers have to change the types and numbers of vehicles they produce in order to achieve that corporate average number. That number is based on sales, not production numbers.

If the vast majority of their sales happens to be a class of vehicle that causes their averages to exceed the regulated number, they have three choices:

1. Pay a fine and pass the cost on to the consumer - at some point, however, regulatory bodies tire of this behavior and either jack up the fines or take action through the Justice Department - Hyundai gambled and lost on this one with their fuel economy certification violations

2. Reduce the number of vehicles in this class they build and offer, and increase the number of compliant vehicles they sell

3. Redesign the vehicle so that it meets requirements and try to sell it to the same people who bought it before

Keep in mind the US Government lost about $10 Billion of their GM bailout, and Chrysler left taxpayers short about $1.3B. Now, GM and Stellantis are receiving a total of about $1.8B in loans from you and me to build out EV production infrastructure. Don't think for a minute that doesn't come with strings attached, such as discontinuing popular but "dirty" engines such as their best-selling V8's.

Not advocating, simply stating facts.

And OBTW, the California Air Resources Board absolutely dictates what vehicles can be sold in the United States more than the EPA, because they have implemented regulations tighter than the EPA, and 13 other states have signed on to their bandwagon. If cars don't meet those regulations, they can't be sold on those states, and it's too expensive for automakers to make different vehicles for sale between the US and Canada, never mind between different US states.

Simple fact is over regulation & mandates stifle innovation & creativity

Dodge passed the fine on to the consumer as a gas guzzler tax & we paid it a couple times

Making vehicles the consumer wants is such a simple concept but we live in an ever more regulated society & till that changes……

 

[MountainDad]

Diesel engines typically produce less power/liter, and less power/KG.

Diesel fuel has higher mass density than gasoline, so there is about 20% more energy in a liter of diesel than in a liter of gasoline.

Diesel engines are more thermally efficient than gasoline engines - up to 40% more efficient, but around 25% on average. Gas engines produce more horsepower at higher RPM, diesel engines produce more torque at lower RPM. Diesel is the preferred choice for generators because of this - more torque at lower RPM means they can turn a generator at a constant lower engine speed far more efficiently than an equivalent-sized gas engine. They also produce far less greenhouse emissions than an equivalent-sized gas engine.

But, because they operate at much higher compression and typically have a longer stroke, the engines are heavier.

And Volkswagen screwed it up for everyone, because they wanted to make $250 more per diesel car by gaming emissions software, and some rednecks like rolling coal, so now we can't have nice things.

 

[MountainDad]

The big question is what is the power output of the engine, that'll determine if the Scouts will be able to keep up on the highway with an unladen swallow

African or European?

Just kidding. Could they *ever* keep up with an unladen swallow on the highway?

Aw, who am I kidding. No malaise-era truck could keep up with any member of the avian family, laden or unladen.

 

[MountainDad]

Simple fact is over regulation & mandates stifle innovation & creativity

Dodge passed the fine on to the consumer as a gas guzzler tax & we paid it a couple times

Making vehicles the consumer wants is such a simple concept but we live in an ever more regulated society & till that changes……

Over- or poorly-designed regulation absolutely stifles innovation, and in many cases it has sent the innovation overseas.

Unfortunately governments in many cases have decided that we are like children with poor impulse control who would always choose candy over vegetables and run with scissors outdoors with no coat in the cold.

 

[Rampy]

Over- or poorly-designed regulation absolutely stifles innovation, and in many cases it has sent the innovation overseas.

Unfortunately governments in many cases have decided that we are like children with poor impulse control who would always choose candy over vegetables and run with scissors outdoors with no coat in the cold.

Very true

I’m a huge Space X fanboy & hopefully will be watching a launch shortly from a beach in Mexico

Anywho, Space X by law is considered a defense contractor and is required to only hire citizens or permanent residents

Biden’s administration is sueing them for not hiring “migrants” and even fined them for using drinking water as a coolant

Insane…….

 

[CarTechGeek]

Here is what Car and Driver says (emphasis mine), which I personally consider a credible source:

They are writers. Not engineers. They get most of it wrong. They are just repeating a bunch of myths about series hybrids, and lack any real understanding.

series hybrids usually require higher battery capacity than conventional hybrids.

No, they don't.

They claim Diesel locomotives are the same, yet locomotives generally don't have any drive batteries at all. They contradict themselves, and show they don't know what they are talking about right there.

If you can build the most powerful series hybrid in world without drive batteries, it should be obvious it isn't about batteries.

There are series hybrid cars with tiny batteries that don't plug in: See Nissan E-Power. That tiny battery is more than sufficient for battery duty in a series hybrid, just like it is in any other conventional non-plug hybrid. The biggest gain from batteries in any hybrid is Regen. This is why hybrids do so well in stop and go traffic.

After Regen, Series hybrids have the exact same need for extra batteries: Plug in Range.

Locomotives don't even bother with Regen. Instead, when they use they use their motors as generators to slow down, they just dump the power in massive heaters to get rid of it. Just like Series hybrid cars, right?

 

[pleasant tree]

Tech I would like to see is a range extender. Lots of ideas, wankel, single stage, alt fuel. Electric drive train with a generator running at optimal fuel efficiency.

You left out the most important: solid state battery optimized for range of 400 to 600 miles, no need for gas, no worry about fire, no worry about cold weather, no worry about oil, charge battery from 0 to 80% in less than 15 minutes, less weight, less cost, no polution

 

[Callsign_DISCO]

For me, Harvester must match the pure EV for performance, in that still tow up to 7,000 at highway speeds. Of course range will be reduced - if combined range is 350-400 when towing it will be perfect, especially if you can just continue by filling up the gas tank.

 

[CarTechGeek]

I think if stationary the onboard generator can recharge the battery if drained, but as an extender I doubt if the generator can move the vehicle once battery fully drained.

Doesn't that sound like a serious limitation to you? Why would SM build in this kind of limitation, when no series drive design before has ever had this limitation?

Engineering Goal: Worse Series Hybrid ever...

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Let's tone the politics and condescension down a bit please. Debating evolving technology is great and encouraged. But let's try not to make it personal. Clearly there are different flavors and implementations of range extending technology and we will have our own spin on it. As soon as we can talk about the specifics of what we are working on, this will be one of the first places to hear about it. Thanks for listening.

 

[CarTechGeek]

Diesel fuel has higher mass density than gasoline, so there is about 20% more energy in a liter of diesel than in a liter of gasoline.

The energy in the fuel has nothing to do with size of the engine needed, but for the sake of accuracy, I'll give some correct numbers. If you look up the BTUs of energy in the fuel, Diesel has about 13.5% more energy, but it also emits a correspondingly higher amount of CO2 as well. I guess you could have a ~14% smaller fuel tank for the same range...

Diesel engines are more thermally efficient than gasoline engines - up to 40% more efficient, but around 25% on average.

This is just wrong. It's about 15% difference at best.

But when you get to efficient passenger cars gas engines making some use of Atkinson Cycle, it's only about 5% difference or less.

Toyota current generation of engines peak at about 40% thermal efficiency, and operate at 38% over a wide range.

VW TDI was said to peak at 42% thermal efficiency.

As I said before. A Toyota Atkinson cycle engine would be the ideal choice for the Harvester engine. The efficiency of a diesel without the diesel hassle.

But I'm not aware that VW has any particularly efficient gas engines.

Gas engines produce more horsepower at higher RPM, diesel engines produce more torque at lower RPM. Diesel is the preferred choice for generators because of this - more torque at lower RPM means they can turn a generator at a constant lower engine speed far more efficiently than an equivalent-sized gas engine. They also produce far less greenhouse emissions than an equivalent-sized gas engine.

Generators don't care about torque. For home generators the overwhelming choice is gasoline or Propane, often dual fueled. Propane can basically be stored for decades without going off like gas or diesel, so for intermittent backup Propane would be ideal.

For cars again, modern efficient gasoline engines are efficient right down to 1000 RPM.

Image of Toyota Engine efficiency map:

https://global.toyota/pages/powertrain/engine/images/engine_003_en.png

But, because they operate at much higher compression and typically have a longer stroke, the engines are heavier.

And Volkswagen screwed it up for everyone, because they wanted to make $250 more per diesel car by gaming emissions software, and some rednecks like rolling coal, so now we can't have nice things.

Heavier engine, worse emissions, so more pollution controls, would have cars pulling back on diesel regardless.

Gas was the right fuel. Hopefully they get a good gas engine.

 

[MountainDad]

Let's tone the politics and condescension down a bit please. Debating evolving technology is great and encouraged. But let's try not to make it personal. Clearly there are different flavors and implementations of range extending technology and we will have our own spin on it. As soon as we can talk about the specifics of what we are working on, this will be one of the first places to hear about it. Thanks for listening.

You guys should probably just lock the thread.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Trying to keep it open for discussion/learning purposes. Let's see how it goes.

 

[CarTechGeek]

Trying to keep it open for discussion/learning purposes. Let's see how it goes.

I was thinking there could be some thread consolidation. There are many threads about the Harvester.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Two have been consolidated so far.

 

[Bodie]

If Harvester works like GM Voltec (minus any mechanical connection), I’m 100% in.
If it works like BMW i3, I’m out.
If it’s something new, I’m intrigued, but if it requires gas AND charging after 500mi, I’m out.

 

[J Alynn]

If Harvester works like GM Voltec (minus any mechanical connection), I’m 100% in.
If it works like BMW i3, I’m out.
If it’s something new, I’m intrigued, but if it requires gas AND charging after 500mi, I’m out.

I’m not knocking you opinion but why, because it’s EV does everyone expect 700 miles of range? Typical EVs in the market generally are less than 300 mile range. Thats like 9-10 hours of driving. So a 25 minute break after 9-10 hours is a make or break to buy a Scout.
Again, I’m east coast and have an ICE suv option at home so this won’t be my main hauler but running a typical SUV at 21 mpg range is 400 miles max before a fill up. On a 12-14 hour drive the down time is nearly identical.
My concern with Harvest is now you are adding more stops due to duel fuel. Maybe Scout needs to open a combo charger/fuel port so you can fuel both at the same time

 

[speedrye]

I’m not knocking you opinion but why, because it’s EV does everyone expect 700 miles of range? Typical EVs in the market generally are less than 300 mile range. Thats like 9-10 hours of driving. So a 25 minute break after 9-10 hours is a make or break to buy a Scout.
Again, I’m east coast and have an ICE suv option at home so this won’t be my main hauler but running a typical SUV at 21 mpg range is 400 miles max before a fill up. On a 12-14 hour drive the down time is nearly identical.
My concern with Harvest is now you are adding more stops due to duel fuel. Maybe Scout needs to open a combo charger/fuel port so you can fuel both at the same time

I think you're looking at this wrong by comparing range to EVs instead of ICE. I think most considering the Harvester are thinking of it as a way of dipping their toes into the EV water so to speak, without jumping completely in to start with. I've considered EVs in the past and have ruled them out. My next vehicle would likely be a plug-in hybrid, but the Scout with Harvester has me very intrigued.
I am one of those hardcore highway haulers that won't stop for much of anything, and if stopping, it better make a NASCAR pit stop look slow.

 

[J Alynn]

I think you're looking at this wrong by comparing range to EVs instead of ICE. I think most considering the Harvester are thinking of it as a way of dipping their toes into the EV water so to speak, without jumping completely in to start with. I've considered EVs in the past and have ruled them out. My next vehicle would likely be a plug-in hybrid, but the Scout with Harvester has me very intrigued.
I am one of those hardcore highway haulers that won't stop for much of anything, and if stopping, it better make a NASCAR pit stop look slow.

I can agree but still the desire to get mileage beyond what is currently reasonable for EV or ICE just intrigues me. I gave up a sport sedan a year ago next week to go to a Honda Accord Hybrid for the same reason-to dip my toe. Figured if I hated hybrid I wouldn’t like EV. I absolutely love my hybrid and it’s given me the confidence to go to EV with the Scout. Peak of summer with 50% suburban and 50% urban driving I was getting over 55 mpg. On a 12 gallon tank that was just over 600 miles of range. That said with convenience of charge from home I don’t expect more than 350 as Scout will deliver. I fully understand the fear of EV. Education on this forum has eased 95% of my concerns but to assumed the Harvester should deliver 700 miles or start on batter for 150 miles then just stop every 400 miles to refill the tank without also recharging sounds to me like a modified hybrid, not an EV. Perhaps I’m seeing it wrong but 500 miles of range should make anyone driving an SUV happy for that kind of range between stops.