Harvester Talk: Q&A

[Noplacelikeloam]

Isn't that the same thing? If the Harvester range extender kicks ON at 150 miles, then you actually DO have 150 miles of "battery only range"

No, because thats how a PHEV works. This isnt that. The boxer engine (or whatever they use) will create maybe 130hp, not enough to propel a 7000lb vehicle. So its just topping up the battery, but the battery is the power and that cant drop too low or it will damage the battery over time. So assume it lets battery get to 25% which would indicate at least a 200mile range battery.

 

[Ike]

I think this is misleading. I know you are not saying this, BUT it sounds like you are saying that you could go out and place the car in some sort of "generator-only mode" and have the gas motor turning the wheels and simply drive away without any juice left in the battery. That is certainly NOT the case since the gas motor must first generate enough electricity, then convert it into the battery, then use the battery with adequate SOC to turn a motor connected to a drive shaft, to ultimately turn a wheel and propel the vehicle forward. Such a small HP engine would not be able to keep pace with the electrons used to power the truck. I would envision that you would be required to sit in place and charge to X% of battery (BEFORE being able to drive a fully depleted battery pack). There will likely also need to be some % of reserve left in the battery pack at all times.

You are correct that I was not trying to imply that the gas motor turn the wheels.

 

[Noplacelikeloam]

I'm sure we're going to hear about this eventually.

But I would be quite disappointed if the Harvester didn't allow you to keep your SOC at the same level in normal highway driving conditions. Otherwise their road tripping potential is really limited. Because yes, you could go 500 miles. But after 500 miles you'd have to fuel up, and charge in one stop, which IMO, defeats the purpose of the EREV.

If it can't do that when towing, I get it. But just driving on the highway it should be able to keep a constant SOC.

But think that through, assuming you are driving at 2kw/mile at 70mph, you need 140kw from the engine. The RAMcharger with a V6 gets close but that takes up the engine bay and is too big.

 

[R1TVT]

No, because thats how a PHEV works. This isnt that. The boxer engine (or whatever they use) will create maybe 130hp, not enough to propel a 7000lb vehicle. So its just topping up the battery, but the battery is the power and that cant drop too low or it will damage the battery over time. So assume it lets battery get to 25% which would indicate at least a 200mile range battery.

Yes, you are proving my point. It doesn't matter what the "theoretical state" of the battery is... Once you hit 150 (which is the range limit) you are now driving with the range extender "on", AND you are using the battery. You are no longer in battery only mode. The other posted (that you quoted above) said "BATTERY ONLY " range.

 

[Noplacelikeloam]

Yes, you are proving my point. It doesn't matter what the "theoretical state" of the battery is... Once you hit 150 (which is the range limit) you are now driving with the range extender "on", AND you are using the battery. You are no longer in battery only mode. The other posted (that you quoted above) said "BATTERY ONLY " range.

Ahhh, yes, 100%!

 

[Logan]

But think that through, assuming you are driving at 2kw/mile at 70mph, you need 140kw from the engine. The RAMcharger with a V6 gets close but that takes up the engine bay and is too big.

I am thinking it through, and that is what I want.

I will admit that I fail to understand the appeal of the harvester, if its engine at best slows down the need to charge during normal diving conditions (70mph on the freeway is a perfect example). Because then on those very road trips where you're hoping to improve via access to gasoline, you'd reach 500 miles, and then have to charge, and fuel up on the same spot, which defeats the purpose of the harvester and not having to look for charging (or, I guess drive at 35mph or whatever the harvester engine could support doing without additional charging).

FWIW, the Ramcharger has a 3.6L V6 that makes ~305hp (227kw). 140kw is 188hp. Engines that make ~188hp or more don't have to be huge. My Hyundai Tucson PHEV has a 1.6L turbo that makes 180HP. The Golf GTI has a 2.0L Turbo that makes 200hp. The 2.0L boxster engine is 300hp.

 

[R1TVT]

if you use the Harvester at the beginning or end shouldn't matter - the amount of power the range extender can use is based on the vehicle's consumption of energy will have a LIMIT. That limit is stated at 500 miles. Now, if you have ever been in an EV you will also know that consumption of energy is much higher at speed with wind resistance (like on a HWY). So, yes, you may be disappointed in the fact that the range extender will not defy the laws of physics and will not maintain a perpetual state of charge will driving. What it will do is extend your estimated range out to 500 miles (which is quite a lot) compared to 350 miles on pure electrons (which is also quite a lot).

If you drive slowly with no wind resistance you could probably go for 1000 miles though!

EDITED : I will add one other thing... And maybe this is at the heart of the question, what happens when you do hit zero with the range extender? Can you top off the gas, sit idle with the range extender ON and add XXX miles in XX minutes and then continue on your journey? Those are the specific details that Scout will likely reveal in the coming months, and that will add peace of mind when out in the wilderness away from all civilization for example, or in the event of a power outage when you want to generate electricity (for example)

 

[Noplacelikeloam]

I am thinking it through, and that is what I want.

I will admit that I fail to understand the appeal of the harvester, if its engine at best slows down the need to charge during normal diving conditions (70mph on the freeway is a perfect example). Because then on those very road trips where you're hoping to improve via access to gasoline, you'd reach 500 miles, and then have to charge, and fuel up on the same spot, which defeats the purpose of the harvester and not having to look for charging (or, I guess drive at 35mph or whatever the harvester engine could support doing without additional charging).

FWIW, the Ramcharger has a 3.6L V6 that makes ~305hp (227kw). 140kw is 188hp. Engines that make ~188hp or more don't have to be huge. My Hyundai Tucson PHEV has a 1.6L turbo that makes 180HP. The Golf GTI has a 2.0L Turbo that makes 200hp. The 2.0L boxster engine is 300hp.

Yeah good point. I've been thinking the same and kind of on the fence for this reason. I guess we will have to see. Im hoping!

Thanks for the info on the engine capacity! Thats good to know.

 

[Ike]

if you use the Harvester at the beginning or end shouldn't matter - the amount of power the range extender can use is based on the vehicle's consumption of energy will have a LIMIT. That limit is stated at 500 miles. Now, if you have ever been in an EV you will also know that consumption of energy is much higher at speed with wind resistance (like on a HWY). So, yes, you may be disappointed in the fact that the range extender will not defy the laws of physics and will not maintain a perpetual state of charge will driving. What it will do is extend your estimated range out to 500 miles (which is quite a lot) compared to 350 miles on pure electrons (which is also quite a lot).

If you drive slowly with no wind resistance you could probably go for 1000 miles though!

There is obviously a limit, but it will be interesting to know if that limit is based on the size of the generator, or based on the size of the fuel tank. Obviously you are going to run out of charge and/or fuel. But fueling is easy to solve on longer road trips. Charging infra is getting better but still isn't what fuel stations are, especially when off road/boondocking

 

[Logan]

if you use the Harvester at the beginning or end shouldn't matter - the amount of power the range extender can use is based on the vehicle's consumption of energy will have a LIMIT. That limit is stated at 500 miles. Now, if you have ever been in an EV you will also know that consumption of energy is much higher at speed with wind resistance (like on a HWY). So, yes, you may be disappointed in the fact that the range extender will not defy the laws of physics and will not maintain a perpetual state of charge will driving. What it will do is extend your estimated range out to 500 miles (which is quite a lot) compared to 350 miles on pure electrons (which is also quite a lot).

If you drive slowly with no wind resistance you could probably go for 1000 miles though!

Not an EV owner yet, but I do definitely understand the fact that EV's get worse range at higher speeds (the inverse of a pure combustion vehicle). I've been driving a PHEV for 2 years now, and definitely manually swap between EV mode and hybrid mode when I'm getting on the highway for any distance (as I want to save the EV mode range for the city part where its the most efficient). I bet you could drive for 15mph for quite a long time as you say .

There really haven't been too many EREV's on the market, so I'm not sure what is "normal" for how they market them. Is it how far you can go before the battery goes flat and gas tank runs out? Or is it more like a PHEV where you use the battery down to a certain %%, then carry on driving on gas alone?

Given we don't know what engine the range extender has atm, I won't argue with you. You're right, if they drop in a ~100hp 3 cylinder, what I've currently envisioned in my head would turn into pure fantasy. But if they lean more Ramcharger with the spec of the engine (something in the 200-300hp range), then it could totally happen.

I "think" most of my friends/family and I that have been discussing the vehicle with so far think of it like I have been, but we could totally be thinking of it wrong. However in this case, depending on the answer, I may have to change my reservation to a BEV, or cancel it (as it might not fit the use case I had in mind when I reserved... that is not a slight at the vehicle btw, as it would be a misunderstanding of my own making).

Excited to learn more about it.

 

[Jim Nichols]

I think a 180HP turbocharged 3 cylinder powering a generator would be adequate. Where would the radiator/oil cooler and fuel tank fit? I have a F150 EcoBoost and the 3.5 v6 is 380HP and 400TQ but a simple chip tune and Premium gas it can be 450HP and 500TQ.

 

[Jim Nichols]

Check out this video:

 

[merrelljohnson]

Honestly with it being a generator, it doesn’t need to be a big engine, as its only function will be to charge the battery pack and potentially serve as a home generator. Those are typically compact!

 

[Chuckles]

I am thinking it through, and that is what I want.

I will admit that I fail to understand the appeal of the harvester, if its engine at best slows down the need to charge during normal diving conditions (70mph on the freeway is a perfect example). Because then on those very road trips where you're hoping to improve via access to gasoline, you'd reach 500 miles, and then have to charge, and fuel up on the same spot, which defeats the purpose of the harvester and not having to look for charging (or, I guess drive at 35mph or whatever the harvester engine could support doing without additional charging).

FWIW, the Ramcharger has a 3.6L V6 that makes ~305hp (227kw). 140kw is 188hp. Engines that make ~188hp or more don't have to be huge. My Hyundai Tucson PHEV has a 1.6L turbo that makes 180HP. The Golf GTI has a 2.0L Turbo that makes 200hp. The 2.0L boxster engine is 300hp.

The Ramcharger generates 130 kW from the Pentastar.

 

[CarTechGeek]

FWIW, the Ramcharger has a 3.6L V6 that makes ~305hp (227kw). 140kw is 188hp. Engines that make ~188hp or more don't have to be huge. My Hyundai Tucson PHEV has a 1.6L turbo that makes 180HP. The Golf GTI has a 2.0L Turbo that makes 200hp. The 2.0L boxster engine is 300hp.

Note that when using an engine as a generator, you have to oversize, and run it at lower than peak output, to not have it under continuous high stress.

The Ramcharger 3.6 Pentastar is a 300 HP (~225KW) engine in normal automotive applications, but in the Ramcharger generator it's max output is 130 KW. That's only about 58% of it's normal max load.


I don't know the size of of the Scout Generator, but it looks fairly small, and the three visible cylinder in the video, kind of hint a 3 cylinder engine. I'd count on significantly less than the 130 KW output of the Ramchargers genset. Like half that or even less.

I think the philosophies are different. I expect the balance here to be more like BMW i3 Rex, where if you flatten the battery, you can barely drive highway speed.

What made the i3 Rex so terrible was that you had a tiny gas tank, and as shipped you couldn't turn on the RE until you flattened the battery, kind of forcing it be a bad experience. With a lower power RE, you need to turn it on at the beginning of a long road trip, to preserve battery.

With the Scout RE, you have 150 Mile range EV for your normal day to day and on a Road trip you start by turning on that generator right away, not waiting until the battery is dead. This way you might pull 75% of your energy from the generator, and only 25% from the battery, and now your battery lasts 4 X as long because most of the energy is coming from the generator. You aren't driving on generator only, but the small generator is enough to supply most, but not all the power you need.

In that sense it really is a range extender, but it doesn't turn into a full normal hybrid when you exhaust the battery. If you try that you will likely face poor highway performance, but you wouldn't be stranded.

I know that will disappoint many people, but it is still a practical solution for longer ranges, and is a probable limitation of a small RE in a big truck.

Note that offroad, I think the small RE would have no problem at all staying ahead of the load requirements, it could likely charge the battery while simultaneously providing all the power you need to move at those slower speeds.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

So maybe a stupid question (I’m trying to learn as much as I can here):

-On a long road trip, say 650 miles at highway speeds (75mph average) when I hit 500 miles can I simply get gas and keep going? Or do I now have to fuel up and charge the Scout?

 

[CarTechGeek]

So maybe a stupid question (I’m trying to learn as much as I can here):

-On a long road trip, say 650 miles at highway speeds (75mph average) when I hit 500 miles can I simply get gas and keep going? Or do I now have to fuel up and charge the Scout?

We don't have those details.

But speculating from the small size of the motor, if you are driving 75 MPH, I'd bet the Generator won't be able to supply that much power, so some of it will have to come from the battery, so once you deplete the battery, you are going to have drive slower, or stop and charge. We don't know how much slower (I doubt even Scout Motors know the answer to that right now).

 

[Harris005]

Any concerns of overworking the batteries and possibly getting overheated while driving? You would be pushing out as well as pushing in energy to the batteries when range extender kicks in.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

We don't have those details.

But speculating from the small size of the motor, if you are driving 75 MPH, I'd bet the Generator won't be able to supply that much power, so some of it will have to come from the battery, so once you deplete the battery, you are going to have drive slower, or stop and charge. We don't know how much slower (I doubt even Scout Motors know the answer to that right now).

I appreciate the response, but selfishly hope you’re wrong. We regularly take two trips each year that are north of 550 miles, and last year we only stoped once for gas and kept going. If this is not a possibility with the Harvester, it may not be the right vehicle for us.

 

[Harris005]

I appreciate the response, but selfishly hope you’re wrong. We regularly take two trips each year that are north of 550 miles, and last year we only stoped once for gas and kept going. If this is not a possibility with the Harvester, it may not be the right vehicle for us.

@R1TVT this might be a good time to interject your knowledge on what a charge duration is these days. An example like this, with only 50 miles to go cant mean that you are spending the night at a charger.