Harvester Talk: Q&A
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I fully understand the implications of the Harvester.
I do believe though that one of the reasons the Harvester option exists, is to get those people who are worried about towing range with an EV onboard (among other reasons of course).
The Ramcharger is using a 3.6l V6 for this purpose. Again, not to power the wheels directly, but to provide enough power to keep the battery charged while towing. It doesn't have to have enough power to fill the battery at the same rate its being discharged while towing 10k lbs up a perpetual grade. But I would expect it to have enough power generation to allow you to drive over a common mountain pass with the towing limit, at regular traffic speeds (ie, making it from Denver to Grand junction CO over the i70 passes).
So as long as the engine can provide enough power to keep it dropping down to 35mph "limp mode" while towing up a big pass, I think we'll be fine. But I do think that if that happened on "most passes", there would be a lot of people saying "but its not a real truck".
Caveat, I'm not a person who tows regularly, but know a lot of people who care a lot about it, and am "channeling their thoughts" so to speak.
FWIW, My use case is more like "Can I drive at 80-85mph with a mountain bike on the back for a full day without stopping to charge, and instead just refueling". Every year we drive from WA to UT to visit family (~900 miles in one day). And most of Idaho the speed limit is 80mph, and people cruise. As long as I can do that, I'm a happy camper.
Actually we can do some calculations. My Mach-E at 80mph in cold, highway driving gives 1.5-2 miles/kWh. That means for one hour of 80mph driving - it consumes 40-50 kWh - thus implying an averaged power draw of 50kW from the battery. This is approximately 70hp, so a 100hp motor running continuously at 100hp can probably charge the battery even while driving at highway speeds.
Exactly my point, enough power to sustain the vehicle itself, but it definitely wouldn't be enough to tow for extended periods. A setting for towing that starts the generator up immediately while slowly using up the battery would be helpful for towing instead of relying on pure battery reserves for any period of time.
Exactly.
The gas engine doesn't have to keep up exactly, but they do need enough buffer ability in the battery to make it up a mountain pass while towing even if the gas engine is in a "kilowatt deficit" so to speak.
The "worst case" scenario for this is pulling up to something like Loveland or Leadville pass in CO (as a hypothetical example, notable as they head up past 10k ft)) with a very low state of charge, while towing. Presumably there is a buffer built into the battery management system, but is it enough to handle that?
Alternatively, if it knows that the route planned in navigation heads up a pass like that, it can start turn on the generator earlier to build up a bit more SOC, in order to make sure it has the buffer needed to make it up the pass.
My current understanding with the ~500 mile range estimate for the Harvester, is that it is ~150miles of EV range, which it would deplete from ~100% charge down to ~20% charge (or something). And at that point it would fire up the gas engine, and try to maintain that ~20% charge as you drove. Which means when you deplete your first tank of gas, you've gone ~500 miles from your starting point.
But after that, you're now at a low SOC, and presumably can fill up with gas to continue on another ~350 miles of range, and repeated that until you reach your destination (where presumably you recharge).
The way physics generally works with towing (for either ICE or EV) is that you will cut your range down significantly based on any number of variables. Of course this is going to vary greatly based on things like temperature, gradient, headwind, aerodynamics of the load, opportunities for regen, etc, etc, etc....
Range (with, or without a range extender) will be a factor while towing based on all of the above.
Let's just say for shits and giggles and to keep it really simple that you will loose 50% of your normal range while towing XXXX pounds down the HWY on AVERAGE for each of your trips. The question is, will you loose 50% of your range if you have the range extender running and a smaller battery? Well, likely yes, because to your point, you must take advantage of the range extender earlier, since you loose more SOC sooner in your journey.
I think the nuance in the question is really this:
If I have the pure EV Terra and I have the range-extended Harvester Terra side by side towing the exact same XXXX pound trailer, under the exact same conditions on the exact same route, what will be my EXPECTED range for each based on a 50% loss?
The snarky answer is this:
I would expect that the pure EV loosing 50% of its range is going to run out of juice at the 175 mile mark
I would expect that the Harvester EV loosing 50% of its range is going to run out of juice at the 250 mile mark
in reality, i really don't know what we will see with side by side towing of the same weights, bc I am unsure of the efficiency of the range extender and how much power loss there will be through conversion... That is all TBD, but in reality, I don't think I would expect to see HUGE Towing gains in a range extended vehicle. What you may see are a few less charging AND gas station stops on a longer road trip while towing.
Interesting graphic for your consideration while towing 10K pounds in a R1T and a Lightening (from consumer reports):
Range (with, or without a range extender) will be a factor while towing based on all of the above.
Let's just say for shits and giggles and to keep it really simple that you will loose 50% of your normal range while towing XXXX pounds down the HWY on AVERAGE for each of your trips. The question is, will you loose 50% of your range if you have the range extender running and a smaller battery? Well, likely yes, because to your point, you must take advantage of the range extender earlier, since you loose more SOC sooner in your journey.
I think the nuance in the question is really this:
If I have the pure EV Terra and I have the range-extended Harvester Terra side by side towing the exact same XXXX pound trailer, under the exact same conditions on the exact same route, what will be my EXPECTED range for each based on a 50% loss?
The snarky answer is this:
I would expect that the pure EV loosing 50% of its range is going to run out of juice at the 175 mile mark
I would expect that the Harvester EV loosing 50% of its range is going to run out of juice at the 250 mile mark
in reality, i really don't know what we will see with side by side towing of the same weights, bc I am unsure of the efficiency of the range extender and how much power loss there will be through conversion... That is all TBD, but in reality, I don't think I would expect to see HUGE Towing gains in a range extended vehicle. What you may see are a few less charging AND gas station stops on a longer road trip while towing.
Interesting graphic for your consideration while towing 10K pounds in a R1T and a Lightening (from consumer reports):
Again, I totally agree. It seems like generally, towing reduces range by ~50% (I've been reading many of the same reviews/reports it seems 
).
I think we differ primarily on expectations. Perhaps my expectations are wrong. But my expectation is on a long road trip, is that I will not HAVE to charge at ALL while, unless I want to. Otherwise the benefit of having a gas engine seems perhaps not worth the cost/complexity, if all it does is delay how long until you need to refuel, and also recharge (just making that stop take longer than if you had to do just one, and also the pain of finding two of those next to each other).
Its my believe that this expectation (and specifically, to do it while towing) is why the Ramcharger has a relatively large gas engine, and a huge 27gal fuel tank. Because I believe they're trying to make sure that someone can tow with it, and still get decent highway range out of it on the road (while retaining the EV benefits while commuting locally).
Given, I don't think that the Scouts will be using such a large gas engine, and also don't think it will be subjected to exactly the same expectations either (most people buying these are likely more interested in the offroady-ness of them, rather than people that want to tow camper trailers long distances... although there is some overlap). But if the gas engine can't generate the power needed to at the very least keep up with the demands under "relatively common heavy use cases" like high speeds on the highway with bikes on a rack, or towing 50% of the rated max load for long distances through the mountains, that would be a major disappointment for me.
).I think we differ primarily on expectations. Perhaps my expectations are wrong. But my expectation is on a long road trip, is that I will not HAVE to charge at ALL while, unless I want to. Otherwise the benefit of having a gas engine seems perhaps not worth the cost/complexity, if all it does is delay how long until you need to refuel, and also recharge (just making that stop take longer than if you had to do just one, and also the pain of finding two of those next to each other).
Its my believe that this expectation (and specifically, to do it while towing) is why the Ramcharger has a relatively large gas engine, and a huge 27gal fuel tank. Because I believe they're trying to make sure that someone can tow with it, and still get decent highway range out of it on the road (while retaining the EV benefits while commuting locally).
Given, I don't think that the Scouts will be using such a large gas engine, and also don't think it will be subjected to exactly the same expectations either (most people buying these are likely more interested in the offroady-ness of them, rather than people that want to tow camper trailers long distances... although there is some overlap). But if the gas engine can't generate the power needed to at the very least keep up with the demands under "relatively common heavy use cases" like high speeds on the highway with bikes on a rack, or towing 50% of the rated max load for long distances through the mountains, that would be a major disappointment for me.
This is pretty much it. The biggest advantage of a range extender in my opinion, as compared to parallel PHEVs is that your driving experience remains unchanged always. In a PHEV, the pure EV motors is often weak and underpowered and has to go through the whole geartrain rather than directly driving your wheels.
But when it comes to range, EREVs will not be the magical solution of 500 miles of range while towing a fully laden trailer at 80mph in 20F weather with headwinds. That just is not possible with physics. Think of it this way - for extra 300 miles of EPA range you can either stick a 150kWh battery or stick in a fuel tank with gasoline (33.7kWh/gallon) with an engine that has a conversion efficiency of 40% and has it's own weight.
This is engineering, which means the land of no free lunches and tradeoffs.
Was checking out the TFLTalk video linked earlier, and they described what it was that I was worried about.
Apparently they owned a BMW I3. And when the battery was depleted, the range extender generator wasn't enough to even remotely keep up with traffic on i70 (amusing that their anecdote was from the same pass I was thinking about
). Said they were going ~30mph, and then ~18mph over Loveland pass.
At a minimum I'd hope that an unladen Scout Harvester could at least keep up with traffic in that situation.
Apparently they owned a BMW I3. And when the battery was depleted, the range extender generator wasn't enough to even remotely keep up with traffic on i70 (amusing that their anecdote was from the same pass I was thinking about
). Said they were going ~30mph, and then ~18mph over Loveland pass.At a minimum I'd hope that an unladen Scout Harvester could at least keep up with traffic in that situation.
I agree that at a minimum I would like to see the Harvester be able to free drive on the generator alone.Was checking out the TFLTalk video linked earlier, and they described what it was that I was worried about.
Apparently they owned a BMW I3. And when the battery was depleted, the range extender generator wasn't enough to even remotely keep up with traffic on i70 (amusing that their anecdote was from the same pass I was thinking about
At a minimum I'd hope that an unladen Scout Harvester could at least keep up with traffic in that situation.
I didn't opt for the Harvester for towing. I went with the Harvester for range. As long as I can drive 400 miles, top off the tank, and then keep going at highway speeds again, I'm good. I've got a trip in my near future that is 650 miles one way, and if the Harvester can do this, then it's perfect. If the truck can only do 500 miles then I need to stop and charge it, then what's the point?
I think this is misleading. I know you are not saying this, BUT it sounds like you are saying that you could go out and place the car in some sort of "generator-only mode" and have the gas motor turning the wheels and simply drive away without any juice left in the battery. That is certainly NOT the case since the gas motor must first generate enough electricity, then convert it into the battery, then use the battery with adequate SOC to turn a motor connected to a drive shaft, to ultimately turn a wheel and propel the vehicle forward. Such a small HP engine would not be able to keep pace with the electrons used to power the truck. I would envision that you would be required to sit in place and charge to X% of battery (BEFORE being able to drive a fully depleted battery pack). There will likely also need to be some % of reserve left in the battery pack at all times.
Yep, think diesel electric trains only on a smaller gas electric vehicle
I’ve wondered for years why nobody made a EV with onboard generator like what Scout is doing
TFL tried towing a very small teardrop camper behind an EV up 25 to 80 and to a overland rally somewhere in the PNW
Think they barely made it to Rawlings WY & realized they could not make it without running out of juice so they turned around & went home
They ran into the same problem with a F150 Lightning going south on I25
My Hyundai Tucson PHEV functions like this.
You "run out" of EV range at ~15% SOC. And at that point the gas engine kicks on, and drives the vehicle (its a parallel PHEV, not a EREV, so it can drive the wheels directly). But that 15% is the "buffer" that is left to allow the vehicle to continue to act as a normal hybrid (ie, its not "all" gas powered, as it still shuts off the engine on downhills, etc, etc). And when we're on the freeway on those long drives, it will dip down to 10-12% or so on the uphills, then charge back up to ~15% on the downhills/flats.
So I'd assume that the EREV Harvester will function similarly. And/or perhaps you can adjust your desired %% SOC where the generator kicks on, so then if you know you have to make it up a huge pass on that trip, you could have it keep more in reserve in preparation for that.
Agreed - I would imagine that there will be some config settings and trip planning "built-in" to the interface so you can choose how you want to use it, but too early to say.
No, it was said that the generator will kick in at 150 miles. Meaning you would have at least another 50+ miles of battery. Its not going to kick in at battery level 0.
The harvestor is unlikley to be powerful enough to generate enough energy to perpetually keep your SOC. So I'm assuming it will kick in at 25% battery left?
Isn't that the same thing? If the Harvester range extender kicks ON at 150 miles, then you actually DO have 150 miles of "battery only range"
I'm sure we're going to hear about this eventually.
But I would be quite disappointed if the Harvester didn't allow you to keep your SOC at the same level in normal highway driving conditions. Otherwise their road tripping potential is really limited. Because yes, you could go 500 miles. But after 500 miles you'd have to fuel up, and charge in one stop, which IMO, defeats the purpose of the EREV.
If it can't do that when towing, I get it. But just driving on the highway it should be able to keep a constant SOC.
