Harvester Talk: Q&A

[YukonCornelius]

@Chaparral ... Loving the username, and curious if it's what I'm thinking it is. If it is, a Scout Fan forum is certainly a place I'd think I'd come across it.

I had a T100 alongside my father's '76 Traveler!!!

 

[Chaparral]

Probably a good guess. After the 150 miles probably still 20% battery left before Harvester kicks in.

That would mean the battery’s full charge is good for about 187.5 miles and the Harvester is therefore providing 312.5 miles of energy over the 500 mile drive. That’s 62% of energy used. If so, the Havester would need to put out something like a continuous 22000 watts.

I think the Harvester has to be a bit smaller, and therefore the battery has to be a bit bigger.

 

[Logan]

Although I wasn't thinking about it at first, and not mentioned during the reveal, I think it is reasonable to expect a small "standard" range battery pack (unless battery pack prices drop a ton in the next 2 years). Which sort of bums me out, as I might end up being priced out of the vehicle (unless my income changes in the next 2 years). But I get it, it is what it is.

I think 1.8 - 2kw/mile is probably close to correct for the efficiency guesses. I see that the Rivian R1S is about 2.1kw/mile, and the Hummer EV1 is at ~1.6kw/mile. So somewhere in there makes sense to me as an estimate.

Which means the useable size of the Harvester options battery pack has to be at least ~70kw - 85kw to go the 150 miles of EV range they specify. Which means then that the real question becomes what size is the rest of the battery pack, and what size is the generator. And both larger generators and larger batteries could independently extend the range to ~500 miles.

Personally, assuming they can do it in terms of packaging, I'd guess they're trying to fit something larger than a 1l 3cyclinder in there. As sourcing a bigger gas engine atm seems cheaper to do than getting a much larger capacity battery in there.

The mix between larger battery and larger generator is a really interesting topic, but one I won't guess we know firmly for a long while.

 

[Chaparral]

I expect the battery is sized to deliver 150 miles in EV only mode.

I don't think waiting for the Harvester to "kick in" is how it's meant to be used.

My bet: If you are doing a long trip, you start the RE, right away to get blended operation of battery and RE, to extend the range. They can run together for about 500 miles (in something like a 75% RE, 25% battery split), and around 500 miles your battery is empty, and then your speed will drop unless you stop and charge. This is the best way to leverage a small generator as an RE, and get the maximum range out the system.

When you are NOT doing long trips you have a 150 mile range pure EV for your normal day to day usage.

Also, I expect there will be three battery sizes, and cost levels.

• A Standard battery (~100 KWh) you get in the base $60K truck, that has something like 220 miles of Range
• A Smaller than standard battery (~70 KWh) to go with the RE, that has 150 Miles of EV only Range. This will be an extra cost option over standard, but it will cost less than the next option. A little smaller than the standard battery, but a LOT smaller than the Large battery.
• A Very Large (~160 KWh) extra cost pack to deliver about 350 miles of Range. This will be the most expensive option.

That keeps the entry level pricing by having a more reasonable starting pack size, and the RE can be a cost savings vs the Very Large Pack because you are saving an enormous 90KWh of battery, which does cost a lot.

If the Harvester is providing 75% of energy on the 500 mile trip, it’s a big engine, almost full sized and will need its own engine bay. If Scout are showing a small engine the battery must still be quite large. Scout said it’s “a little bit smaller” to make room for the gas tank.

With my rough estimate the Harvester provides about 40% of power on the 500 mile long drive, it would weigh nearly 300lbs, take up something like 15 cu ft and put out a continuous 15000 Watts and its BOM is probably less than 1/10 of the cost of the full sized battery. The added weight of the Harvester is probably mostly offset by the reduced weight of the battery.

Both options might have similar pricing. We’ll have to wait and see.

 

[R1TVT]

I would expect that part of the pricing equation for new owners considering a purchase will also include service, maintenance, time and parts. For that, I would fully expect the RE to add incremental costs over time, so when weighing the financial piece of the equation as a consumer, that could also be a consideration. Time could include additional service center time for RE owners, but we'll need to see what type of service infrastructure exists also. I have had two remote service visits to my home by Rivian with a service van, which was great, so I'm sure Scout will consider the potential for remote service / home service also (at least for basic service items).

 

[CarTechGeek]

If the Harvester is providing 75% of energy on the 500 mile trip, it’s a big engine, almost full sized and will need its own engine bay. If Scout are showing a small engine the battery must still be quite large. Scout said it’s “a little bit smaller” to make room for the gas tank.

With my rough estimate the Harvester provides about 40% of power on the 500 mile long drive, it would weigh nearly 300lbs, take up something like 15 cu ft and put out a continuous 15000 Watts and its BOM is probably less than 1/10 of the cost of the full sized battery. The added weight of the Harvester is probably mostly offset by the reduced weight of the battery.

Both options might have similar pricing. We’ll have to wait and see.

If we wait for the RE to "kick in", then you need an even bigger RE because you are exhausting battery early when it could be contributing to more range in blended operation right from the start. This is kind of step one.

The one thing we know is the size of the battery - It sufficient for 150 miles.

If we know we have 150 mile of all EV range, then we have ceiling on the percentage of battery involvement in a 500 mile trip.

At most it's 30%, so the RE must supply the other 70%.

So the RE MUST be sized to handle about 70% or so of a regular load. But that regular load may just be 60 MPH on flat ground.

 

[Chaparral]

. I have had two remote service visits to my home by Rivian with a service van, which was great, so I'm sure Scout will consider the potential for remote service / home service also (at least for basic service items).

They announced “in-driveway flexibility” on a slide during the reveal event.

 

[CarTechGeek]

I think 1.8 - 2kw/mile is probably close to correct for the efficiency guesses. I see that the Rivian R1S is about 2.1kw/mile, and the Hummer EV1 is at ~1.6kw/mile. So somewhere in there makes sense to me as an estimate.

If it does 1.8 KW/mile at 70 MPH, that is about 39 KW consumption (70/1.8).

That means you could have small naturally aspirated generator supply enough for highway speed (just).

IIRC the Chevy Volts had 50-60 KW 1.5L Naturally aspirated generator.

Something like that would enable highway cruising in ideal conditions.

A smaller, naturally aspirated 3 cyl could still hit 75%+ of needs...

 

[J Alynn]

Ah, good info. The ramcharger version is defined compared to the normal version.


All this makes me wonder.

Will there be a mode on the harvester option to “please recharge my Scout by running the generator when I’m not in it”? Would be weird, but totally useful. In a place without chargers, you could fill with gas on a road trip, then head to go eat and let it idle away and charge while you ate, then fill up again before you left.

Or the “I’ve got a Jerry can of gas” while out wheeling and dump it in and get it charging before you head out sort of situation.

The issue with a regen recharge while not in it is the risk of you get home pull in the garage and fire it up. People do dumb stuff and next thing you know the house burns down or someone dies from carbon monoxide (?) poisoning. That in itself will be an interesting hurdle to overcome. Common sense says you plug it into charger but there’s always one in the group….

 

[Rampy]

The issue with a regen recharge while not in it is the risk of you get home pull in the garage and fire it up. People do dumb stuff and next thing you know the house burns down or someone dies from carbon monoxide (?) poisoning. That in itself will be an interesting hurdle to overcome. Common sense says you plug it into charger but there’s always one in the group….

How much does it cost to have a level 2 charger installed??

The Traveler will not fit in our garage

 

[Chaparral]

The issue with a regen recharge while not in it is the risk of you get home pull in the garage and fire it up. People do dumb stuff and next thing you know the house burns down or someone dies from carbon monoxide (?) poisoning. That in itself will be an interesting hurdle to overcome. Common sense says you plug it into charger but there’s always one in the group….

There could be a carbon-monoxide sensor that turns off the Harvester if it’s detected. Or the vehicle can ask the user to confirm the vehicle is in a well ventilated area (and not close to an open window) before turning on the generator. People tend to be well aware of not running an engine in a closed garage.

Being able to run the Havester to power up the battery when not in the vehicle would be a great feature for a long camping trip. Especially, if you roll into camp with a partially drained battery and won’t have a chance to charge for a few days. I’d be really disappointed if this isn’t possible.

 

[theek]

So you want to buy an EV to just continually run it on gas??? Is that what you meant?

So you want to buy an EV to just continually run it on gas??? Is that what you meant?

Yes, in isolated situations like the Yukon, Alaska, or even Newfoundland. Charge with electrons when home.

 

[theek]

Yep, think diesel electric trains only on a smaller gas electric vehicle

I’ve wondered for years why nobody made a EV with onboard generator like what Scout is doing

You mean the Ramcharger REV coming next year?

 

[CarTechGeek]

You mean the Ramcharger REV coming next year?

Or the BMW i3 Rex that was sold in USA as far back as 2014. It even put the Range Extender near the rear axle.

 

[Fins160]

I know there’s a lot of nonEV folks on here, so I think it’s important to temper expectations a bit. We will know more as time goes on but barring some incredible leap of technology, this is likely scenario:

1. Your vehicle configuration will have a HUGE impact on range, with or without harvester. A base model (assume 32in higher efficiency tires) will have much better range than your 35” mud terrain tires with a roof rack. We should guess that 300+miles EV and 500 miles harvester are for the former model running at low highway speeds (55mph), as you would need efficiency of 1.9 or better even if they shove a massive 160kW battery pack in there to get 300miles.

2. If you are thinking that with the Harvester option you will be able to drive 500 miles, fill your generator with gas, and drive another 350mi, you are going to be disappointed. If you somehow time it perfectly to drive 500 miles non-stop to a charger, bone dry on electrons and gas, you’ll still only charge up to 80% (usually that’s all you charge to when fast charging), fill your generator gas tank, and then go another 400 miles before being bone dry of electrons and gas again. That’s still INCREDIBLE range for an EV. I know some of you road warriors may drive 15 hours a day with one stop, but not me.

3. If you tow, I think the harvester is a good option to get somewhere between 200-250mile range towing on an EV, which would be 2x or more current EV offerings. At that point, you would rinse and repeat the process above.

4. It’s possible the harvester will allow you to charge with the generator when idle. With efficiency losses, if you are getting 50kW from the engine, it will take 3 hours to charge battery from near zero. If that works, I think that’s a great option if you are looking to go over landing and can carry some Jerry cans to charge up overnight or during an extended break. It would also be great in an emergency if you’re out of electrons and your buddy is able to get you a gas can to limp to the next charger.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

I know there’s a lot of nonEV folks on here, so I think it’s important to temper expectations a bit. We will know more as time goes on but barring some incredible leap of technology, this is likely scenario:

1. Your vehicle configuration will have a HUGE impact on range, with or without harvester. A base model (assume 32in higher efficiency tires) will have much better range than your 35” mud terrain tires with a roof rack. We should guess that 300+miles EV and 500 miles harvester are for the former model running at low highway speeds (55mph), as you would need efficiency of 1.9 or better even if they shove a massive 160kW battery pack in there to get 300miles.

2. If you are thinking that with the Harvester option you will be able to drive 500 miles, fill your generator with gas, and drive another 350mi, you are going to be disappointed. If you somehow time it perfectly to drive 500 miles non-stop to a charger, bone dry on electrons and gas, you’ll still only charge up to 80% (usually that’s all you charge to when fast charging), fill your generator gas tank, and then go another 400 miles before being bone dry of electrons and gas again. That’s still INCREDIBLE range for an EV. I know some of you road warriors may drive 15 hours a day with one stop, but not me.

3. If you tow, I think the harvester is a good option to get somewhere between 200-250mile range towing on an EV, which would be 2x or more current EV offerings. At that point, you would rinse and repeat the process above.

4. It’s possible the harvester will allow you to charge with the generator when idle. With efficiency losses, if you are getting 50kW from the engine, it will take 3 hours to charge battery from near zero. If that works, I think that’s a great option if you are looking to go over landing and can carry some Jerry cans to charge up overnight or during an extended break. It would also be great in an emergency if you’re out of electrons and your buddy is able to get you a gas can to limp to the next charger.

The problem for me as a EV Newby is the Harvester Range Extender sounded like the solution to Range Anxiety. I’m sure I’m not the only one who put a deposit down thinking this was the perfect EV for my usage. All EV for most daily activities and commutes, but when the 500 plus mile days come, it’s as simple as topping off the gas tank and being on my way.

 

[Rampy]

You mean the Ramcharger REV coming next year?

As one who has owned Dodge products & driven them since the 80’s

Dodge trucks are trash

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

As one who has owned Dodge products & driven them since the 80’s

Dodge trucks are trash

My TRX may disagree with you (as well as my past trucks - a 2012 Power Wagon and 2004 Ram 2500 Hemi).

 

[Rampy]

My TRX may disagree with you (as well as my past trucks - a 2012 Power Wagon and 2004 Ram 2500 Hemi).

TRX’s are trash & worthless off road, the original power wagon was a beast

As far as Ram Hemi…

Choices are good

 

[Harris005]

That 8% thing was only because BMW was chasing extra EV credits in California. CA had a strange rule that you could get more EV credits with your plug in, but first it had to have more Battery range, than range on gasoline (so there was a further restriction on the tiny gas tank to make sure the Gas range was kept under the Battery range). Then on top of that, you had to exhaust the battery before turning on the Range Extender.

There is no way that Scout will be following those silly rules, if they even still exist.

So, they might indeed have a park and charge mode if you get stuck somewhere without charging, and they will definitely let you turn on the RE early, with most of your EV range left, to stretch out your battery usage.