Another competitor

[Jim Nichols]

New Range Rover Defender EV coming soon:

Fully Electric Land Rover Defender Reportedly Coming In 2025

An all-electric version of the Land Rover Defender is reportedly due in 2025, per a recent report by Auto Express.

insideevs.com

 

[Jim Nichols]

I hope a bare bones Scout comes in around $40,000. About half the price of the Defender and with 400 mile range.

 

[Jim Nichols]

New Toyota Landcruiser:

2025 Toyota Land Cruiser to Return to America with a New Mission

The Land Cruiser could have a resemblance to the Lexus GX, marking a departure from the model that left the U.S. in 2021.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[J Alynn]

I wouldn’t consider the Rover a competitor unless Scout plans on constantly having electronic issues with their new design. LR’s vehicles are all riddled with electronic/technology issues.

 

[J Alynn]

New Range Rover Defender EV coming soon:

Fully Electric Land Rover Defender Reportedly Coming In 2025

An all-electric version of the Land Rover Defender is reportedly due in 2025, per a recent report by Auto Express.

insideevs.com

Maybe this would be better located under the thread that already exists that’s titled:

https://scoutmotors.community.forum/threads/scout-motors-who-are-your-competitors.371/

 

[J Alynn]

New Toyota Landcruiser:

2025 Toyota Land Cruiser to Return to America with a New Mission

The Land Cruiser could have a resemblance to the Lexus GX, marking a departure from the model that left the U.S. in 2021.

www.caranddriver.com

I wrote this off when you first posted it and then read the article. I think the “new” Land Cruiser could be one of the biggest competitors to the new Scout. Seems like retro is a priority, if they mod the engine to a hybrid it now appeals to more buyers and the Toyota quality will lure people in. I’ve been a fan of the Land Cruiser since college when a friend drove a fairly complete/restored LC. Was always such an awesome vehicle.
I think the boys at Scout should definitely keep an eye on this one. If price of Scout is managed that might keep it lower than Toyota which would be a selling feature.

 

[J Alynn]

Here’s another story on the Land Cruiser from Motor Trend

2025 Toyota Land Cruiser: Everything We Know About Its Return to the U.S.

Look for the new Cruiser to be smaller and more affordable than the big one that exited our market two years ago.

www.motortrend.com

 

[R1TVT]

One of the best things about the EV truck revolution is not needing to depend on flawed vehicles from overseas, or compromising on vehicle that punches all the boxes on the feature list, but is constantly in the shop for electrical issues or maintenance. LR does have a storied history of numerous electrical issues, but maybe going electric will solve those LOL... Supporting companies like Rivian and Scout (and the OEM's that have begun their innovation efforts) is good for America,

 

[Jim Nichols]

Jeep's planned Recon:

Jeep Recon: What we know about America's tough Electric off-roader

The Jeep Recon will be one of the four Jeep EVs confirmed for global launch by 2025. Here's everything we know about the future electric SUV.

topelectricsuv.com

Jeep Recon EV: Electric Wrangler “brother” is one in all three production-bound EVs revealed

Jeep on Thursday revealed what it referred to as the following section of its shift to an all-electric lineup for Europe by 2030 and a goal of half EV

theautojournal.com

 

[Ecca]

I wrote this off when you first posted it and then read the article. I think the “new” Land Cruiser could be one of the biggest competitors to the new Scout. Seems like retro is a priority, if they mod the engine to a hybrid it now appeals to more buyers and the Toyota quality will lure people in. I’ve been a fan of the Land Cruiser since college when a friend drove a fairly complete/restored LC. Was always such an awesome vehicle.
I think the boys at Scout should definitely keep an eye on this one. If price of Scout is managed that might keep it lower than Toyota which would be a selling feature.

If smaller and more affordable is coming back, imagine if the trend continued further and Toyota rebadged a Suzuki Jimny as a Land Cruiser Mini or did a tiny FJ...

edit: apparently I completely missed all the news about their compact cruiser that basically is a baby FJ? And a lower beltline for better visibility forward. The design looks a bit lumpy to me but I like the idea behind the form factor.




Wait, from the front it makes a lot more sense than the render, I like it. I miss the round headlights though:

 

[J Alynn]

If smaller and more affordable is coming back, imagine if the trend continued further and Toyota rebadged a Suzuki Jimny as a Land Cruiser Mini or did a tiny FJ...

I know you are into smaller but just not gonna fill the market share. Spent the day today in my daughters 4-door Bronco and had lots of room. Saw 4 other broncos today and all were 4-door. Enthusiasts all want small and flexible for off roading but the majority want 4door. And while the original early Scouts were often 2-door in most variants it was built as a family vehicle as well as work and needs to accommodate families with kids. Nobody with kids wants to be shoving them in through the front door. Back then we didn’t have 20 laws on how to protect our kids-hell-probably could’ve bubble wrapped them as they rode in the rear bay with no seatbelts sitting in the primary crumple zone

 

[Ecca]

I know you are into smaller but just not gonna fill the market share. Spent the day today in my daughters 4-door Bronco and had lots of room. Saw 4 other broncos today and all were 4-door. Enthusiasts all want small and flexible for off roading but the majority want 4door. And while the original early Scouts were often 2-door in most variants it was built as a family vehicle as well as work and needs to accommodate families with kids. Nobody with kids wants to be shoving them in through the front door. Back then we didn’t have 20 laws on how to protect our kids-hell-probably could’ve bubble wrapped them as they rode in the rear bay with no seatbelts sitting in the primary crumple zone

Yup, I'm painfully aware how slim the market share is. This is why I like the idea of using excellent mass market models to help allow the enthusiast models to exist by alleviating some of the risk of targeting slimmer but underserved markets. The fact that most Broncos are 4 doors doesn't mean the 2 door Broncos don't exist or are totally unprofitable.

And how about another slim segment: relatively affordable performance manual transmission cars that are 2 doors and functionally 2-seaters? There's a few able to thrive with some collaboration or reuse of existing platforms and tech: BRZ/GR86, Supra, Nissan Z, and the ever-present MX-5 that carved out its very own space. Small 4 doors are also a thing. I believe a 4-door Jimny is coming out elsewhere.

And don't forget the power of branding through unique halo cars that can be practically anything with a particular vision.

 

[J Alynn]

Yup, I'm painfully aware how slim the market share is. This is why I like the idea of using excellent mass market models to help allow the enthusiast models to exist by alleviating some of the risk of targeting slimmer but underserved markets. The fact that most Broncos are 4 doors doesn't mean the 2 door Broncos don't exist or are totally unprofitable.

And how about another slim segment: relatively affordable performance manual transmission cars that are 2 doors and functionally 2-seaters? There's a few able to thrive with some collaboration or reuse of existing platforms and tech: BRZ/GR86, Supra, Nissan Z, and the ever-present MX-5 that carved out its very own space. Small 4 doors are also a thing. I believe a 4-door Jimny is coming out elsewhere.

And don't forget the power of branding through unique halo cars that can be practically anything with a particular vision.

Have an Acura TLX type S. Let’s be honest it’s a niche vehicle as well and I’d be upset if sport sedans disappeared even though I know sedans in general are dying slowly

 

[Albal]

I'm into smaller as well. Just easier to live with day to day, not even considering off road benefits. Also, over time cars tend to get bigger each redesign. Gotta leave room to expand!

The trend towards bigger can't go on forever, unless we plan on redesigning our infrastructure. I think there will be a tipping point, then suddenly everyone will be singing the virtues of reasonably-sized vehicles.

 

[J Alynn]

I'm into smaller as well. Just easier to live with day to day, not even considering off road benefits. Also, over time cars tend to get bigger each redesign. Gotta leave room to expand!

The trend towards bigger can't go on forever, unless we plan on redesigning our infrastructure. I think there will be a tipping point, then suddenly everyone will be singing the virtues of reasonably-sized vehicles.

It will be the early 80’s all over again when ‘fuel’ restrictions force better mileage which means smaller/lighter vehicles. I’m all for 2-door but Americans love flushing their money to play “mine’s bigger than yours”
SADLY!!!

 

[Ecca]

I think there will be a tipping point, then suddenly everyone will be singing the virtues of reasonably-sized vehicles.

I'm already seeing the tipping point in my area. Just on my street there's a Scion iQ, Smart, Mazda 3, and two Versas. I'm in a dense urban area with a ton of street parking where two modern cars can't drive past each other on a two-way street, so people desperately grab the tiniest car they can find or just go with scooters, bikes, or public transit if possible.

In my area, people seem to buy larger vehicles only reluctantly because there are no other options. So when I show people photos of tiny cars like the Canta in the Netherlands or kei cars from Japan, they're amazed and then immediately disappointed that they're all unavailable in the US. If I go further out in Virginia, even there people try to get super tiny trucks imported for 'off-road use only' to get around the farm or whatever.

Americans love flushing their money to play “mine’s bigger than yours”

Sometimes I feel like consumer preference is the way it is because of how much marketing gets put towards those specific vehicle segments. Chicken or egg? I mean I know that generally low fuel costs in the US, our car-centric infrastructure, the "command" driving position perceived as safe and good for the occupants, and other archetypal manifestations of American individualism like "mine's bigger than yours" or prioritizing occupant safety (leading to space taken up for that goal) all play a part. But that's not the whole picture.

How about the exceptions for light trucks in the CAFE standards giving fuel efficiency breaks for SUVs and pickups? Ostensibly for work vehicles for farmers or contractors, now everyone drives one. Even people who are aware of that still talk like SUVs and pickups are just a consumer preference thing and that Americans don't want smaller cars as if it is a given. Sure, it is a consumer preference. However, get a marketing genius to spin compact cars as the new trend and consumers would prefer compact cars, though that doesn't get the same money as each truck does and isn't as easy as the status quo. There's higher margins on larger vehicles from all sorts of other reasons, like the perception that bigger = more expensive despite the tooling costs not being far off between sizes of similarly constructed vehicles (as far as I know, please correct me if I am wrong).

So of course manufacturers only push huge vehicles and when huge vehicles are the only option, people buy them. Then market research shows people preferring and buying huge vehicles, and the cycle continues. Doesn't matter whether automakers encouraged the light truck CAFE loophole or not—even if they didn't, they wouldn't see any reason not to use it to their advantage and the end result is the same: they market big vehicles to everyone, so everyone buys big vehicles, so they market big vehicles.

Like you say,

The trend towards bigger can't go on forever

This automotive equivalent of dangerous monoculture farming will hit a wall eventually. That wall could literally be cars getting too big for roads, or something less on-the-nose—like if there are changes to EPA regulations on the horizon triggering a shift. How do you differentiate when vehicles can't get any bigger and innovations start to be a stale numbers game, like when "safe bet" flagship smartphones all became similar?

Let's see which companies have the guts to preempt this by doing a hard push at the right moment for other daily-driver options besides big SUVs, pickups, and crossovers. Maybe EV efficiency can be a window to exit the car-fattening cycle I mentioned before by damping the outcomes of the light truck provision?

Honestly, this is all entirely speculation and not backed by any hard data, so it's just a series of fun thoughts for discussion.

tl;dr there's more reasons for vehicles getting bigger, SUV/pickup monoculture is not ideal and maybe not as safe a bet as it seems, and whoever solves the cycle at the right time 'wins'.

 

[J Alynn]

I'm already seeing the tipping point in my area. Just on my street there's a Scion iQ, Smart, Mazda 3, and two Versas. I'm in a dense urban area with a ton of street parking where two modern cars can't drive past each other on a two-way street, so people desperately grab the tiniest car they can find or just go with scooters, bikes, or public transit if possible.

In my area, people seem to buy larger vehicles only reluctantly because there are no other options. So when I show people photos of tiny cars like the Canta in the Netherlands or kei cars from Japan, they're amazed and then immediately disappointed that they're all unavailable in the US. If I go further out in Virginia, even there people try to get super tiny trucks imported for 'off-road use only' to get around the farm or whatever.

Sometimes I feel like consumer preference is the way it is because of how much marketing gets put towards those specific vehicle segments. Chicken or egg? I mean I know that generally low fuel costs in the US, our car-centric infrastructure, the "command" driving position perceived as safe and good for the occupants, and other archetypal manifestations of American individualism like "mine's bigger than yours" or prioritizing occupant safety (leading to space taken up for that goal) all play a part. But that's not the whole picture.

How about the exceptions for light trucks in the CAFE standards giving fuel efficiency breaks for SUVs and pickups? Ostensibly for work vehicles for farmers or contractors, now everyone drives one. Even people who are aware of that still talk like SUVs and pickups are just a consumer preference thing and that Americans don't want smaller cars as if it is a given. Sure, it is a consumer preference. However, get a marketing genius to spin compact cars as the new trend and consumers would prefer compact cars, though that doesn't get the same money as each truck does. There's higher margins on larger vehicles from all sorts of other reasons, like the perception that bigger = more expensive despite the tooling costs not being far off between sizes of similarly constructed vehicles (as far as I know, please correct me if I am wrong).

So of course manufacturers only push huge vehicles and when huge vehicles are the only option, people buy them. Then market research shows people preferring and buying huge vehicles, and the cycle continues. Doesn't matter whether automakers encouraged the light truck CAFE loophole or not—even if they didn't, they wouldn't see any reason not to use it to their advantage and the end result is the same: they market big vehicles, so people buy big vehicles, so they market big vehicles.

Like you say,

This automotive equivalent of dangerous monoculture farming will hit a wall eventually. That wall could literally be cars getting too big for roads, or something less on-the-nose—like if there are changes to EPA regulations on the horizon triggering a shift. How do you differentiate when vehicles can't get any bigger and innovations start to be a stale numbers game, like when "safe bet" flagship smartphones all became similar?

Let's see which companies have the guts to preempt this by doing a hard push at the right moment for other daily-driver options besides big SUVs, pickups, and crossovers. Maybe EV efficiency can be a window to exit the car-fattening cycle I mentioned before by damping the outcomes of the light truck provision?

Honestly, this is all entirely speculation and not backed by any hard data, so it's just a series of fun thoughts for discussion.

tl;dr there's more reasons for vehicles getting bigger, SUV/pickup monoculture is not ideal and maybe not as safe a bet as it seems, and whoever solves the cycle 'wins'.

Well written. Out of curiosity for the sake of this discussion. What demographic are you. There is a post I started asking as a poll what demographic are you. My curiosity is are you single and/or have family-small or large? I spent a summer (1995) in Italy/primarily Rome studying architecture. Obviously parking is/was nearly impossible. At that time in my life (21) I was ready to buy 3 or 4 different small vehicles. I started with a Chrysler Neon then a small Nissan Altima (as you noted-it’s grown incrementally too) then along came kid. Moved to SUV (Nissan Pathfinder-again-has grown). Wanted a Xterra but comfort and practicality was won by my wife-another hurdle to getting smaller off-road oriented SUV’s. Then I went back down to an Acura sport wagon-one of my All time favorite cars-ironically it failed because US female buyers hated wagons. Had a bike rack and was perfect to load my road bike. My daughter started archery and very quickly the wagon became small because seats were always down to accommodate equipment so back to a larger SUV to handle sports. Ironically I blame year round kid’s sports commitments to the growth of SUVs. Ultimately SUVs need to meet family buyers needs for space, loading kids/car seats, traveling with crap/sporting goods (worse with multiple kids) and feeling safe. Then factor in they keep growing taller. Part of other reason I gave up wagon. SUV’s now maintain over 50% of new car sales and seeing around them forces more people to go bigger (GUILTY)
@Jamie@ScoutMotors already noted battery capacity for range vs ladder frame size SO going 4-door basically becomes necessary.
Anyway-I would LOVE a two door Scout and maybe by 2028-2030 they will offer 2-door once battery technology solves for smaller batteries (Toyota just announced they’ve had a breakthrough that I think mentioned half the size of current). By then I may be ready to trade in my 2026 but hopefully having strong chance at a Vanguard/1st edition I don’t know if I’ll want to give it up.
Hopefully my ramblings make some sense-long day in the heat/humidity today in PA

 

[J Alynn]

I remember the Geo Trackers as well and they were great as a smaller/urban SUV. And had removable roof

 

[Ecca]

Out of curiosity for the sake of this discussion. What demographic are you. There is a post I started asking as a poll what demographic are you. My curiosity is are you single and/or have family-small or large?

I have a partner and I suppose we're both outdoor enthusiast Millenials. The only vehicle we've had was leasing a late (202X) Subaru Legacy, bought it out at the end of the lease and later resold for pretty much its MSRP. We are now in DC, so a very HCOL area, and haven't bothered getting another car to save money. We have four jobs between us, so I guess quad income no kids: she's a senior manager at a research nonprofit and a Georgetown professor, and I'm a freelance TPM and design and sell input peripherals online. All of this has a publicly visible presence on the internet anyway, so I don't mind sharing.

Anyway, getting a new car is almost pointless at the moment since our current home —> grocery store distance is less than the distance to walk from a car in the parking lot to the grocery store's door at our prior city. It is a slight inconvenience to have to rent a car or truck whenever we need to use one. That inconvenience is nothing compared to the amount of work required to cover the costs of ownership outright. Solidly thousands of dollars per year vs less than $200 for the 1-2 times actually need to drive. if I want to explore other work I'd want to have a car available, though. So it might as well be a fun one, whether off-road or sports. Strangely enough, cross-shopping waiting for the Scout models, a Crosstrek Wilderness, or a Nissan Z.

Once all the zoomers start picking up cars and continue not having kids, the market might start to expand for other fun options, I hope.

---

I spent a summer (1995) in Italy/primarily Rome studying architecture. Obviously parking is/was nearly impossible. At that time in my life (21) I was ready to buy 3 or 4 different small vehicles. I started with a Chrysler Neon then a small Nissan Altima (as you noted-it’s grown incrementally too) then along came kid. Moved to SUV (Nissan Pathfinder-again-has grown). Wanted a Xterra but comfort and practicality was won by my wife-another hurdle to getting smaller off-road oriented SUV’s. Then I went back down to an Acura sport wagon-one of my All time favorite cars-ironically it failed because US female buyers hated wagons. Had a bike rack and was perfect to load my road bike. My daughter started archery and very quickly the wagon became small because seats were always down to accommodate equipment so back to a larger SUV to handle sports. Ironically I blame year round kid’s sports commitments to the growth of SUVs. Ultimately SUVs need to meet family buyers needs for space, loading kids/car seats, traveling with crap/sporting goods (worse with multiple kids) and feeling safe. Then factor in they keep growing taller. Part of other reason I gave up wagon. SUV’s now maintain over 50% of new car sales and seeing around them forces more people to go bigger (GUILTY)

What's really bizarre to me about SUV popularity is how often their use cases are better met by other vehicles. Most people operate on roads that don't need the extra ground clearance, and when you look at the specs for compact SUVs and crossovers vs a regular hatchback, or even a larger SUV vs a minivan, the lower position actually means considerably more internal space despite a slightly smaller external form. Even the Legacy (which didn't benefit from the tail end of a wagon or hatchback, of course) still had enough space to fit 2 bikes inside with the rear seats folded down, or could use a bike rack just as well as an SUV. For a minivan, you also get better sightlines with the traditionally sloped hood along with the ride height aero benefits.

---

Hopefully my ramblings make some sense-long day in the heat/humidity today in PA

Don't worry, I can guarantee you make sense considering I can understand what you're getting at even while my brain is scrambled from the heat and humidity here too down south from you. I ended up biking today since the thunderstorms cleared up. Looks like a normal ride through the park at first glance:


But then zoom in and it's actually endless laps of the same route for 100 miles:

 

[J Alynn]

I have a partner and I suppose we're both outdoor enthusiast Millenials. The only vehicle we've had was leasing a late (202X) Subaru Legacy, bought it out at the end of the lease and later resold for pretty much its MSRP. We are now in DC, so a very HCOL area, and haven't bothered getting another car to save money. We have four jobs between us, so I guess quad income no kids: she's a senior manager at a research nonprofit and a Georgetown professor, and I'm a freelance TPM and design and sell input peripherals online. All of this has a publicly visible presence on the internet anyway, so I don't mind sharing.

Anyway, getting a new car is almost pointless at the moment since our current home —> grocery store distance is less than the distance to walk from a car in the parking lot to the grocery store's door at our prior city. It is a slight inconvenience to have to rent a car or truck whenever we need to use one. That inconvenience is nothing compared to the amount of work required to cover the costs of ownership outright. Solidly thousands of dollars per year vs less than $200 for the 1-2 times actually need to drive. if I want to explore other work I'd want to have a car available, though. So it might as well be a fun one, whether off-road or sports. Strangely enough, cross-shopping waiting for the Scout models, a Crosstrek Wilderness, or a Nissan Z.

Once all the zoomers start picking up cars and continue not having kids, the market might start to expand for other fun options, I hope.

---

What's really bizarre to me about SUV popularity is how often their use cases are better met by other vehicles. Most people operate on roads that don't need the extra ground clearance, and when you look at the specs for compact SUVs and crossovers vs a regular hatchback, or even a larger SUV vs a minivan, the lower position actually means considerably more internal space despite a slightly smaller external form. Even the Legacy (which didn't benefit from the tail end of a wagon or hatchback, of course) still had enough space to fit 2 bikes inside with the rear seats folded down, or could use a bike rack just as well as an SUV. For a minivan, you also get better sightlines with the traditionally sloped hood along with the ride height aero benefits.

---

Don't worry, I can guarantee you make sense considering I can understand what you're getting at even while my brain is scrambled from the heat and humidity here too down south from you. I ended up biking today since the thunderstorms cleared up. Looks like a normal ride through the park at first glance:
View attachment 1505

But then zoom in and it's actually endless laps of the same route for 100 miles:
View attachment 1506View attachment 1507

Nice ride-with today’s heat and humidity I’m very impressed. I opted to sit in the A/C and watch stage 11 of the Tour de France then swam in pool for 3 hours. Similar concept in my mind. Both were roughly 100 miles and we were both drenched when we finished . First Saturday in a long while that I had that much free time. I get your point on a hatchback/wagon as well but Acura told me women were even refusing them as loaners. I appreciate the personal share because at your stage in life you are at the further extreme from most of the people who responded to my age poll where the two largest groups of responders were roughly 45-60 years old. Likely mid/older teenage kids and based on locations and conversations we’ve had on this forum I’m guessing our age groups comprise of road commuters as you made a brief reference to. Based on your pic I’m guessing you are younger -not assuming no kids means that as it may just be a life choice. As a residential designer I’m seeing huge shifts in the difference between older, traditional home buyers and millennials who want (or can only afford) small and simple. It’s not an easy solution and I think (call me out if wrong) -younger groups/millennials want everything that’s utility to be like a Swiss Army knife with lots of flexibility. I think older buyer groups (basing some of this from conversations on Bronco6G forum) prefer their commuter vehicle, their family hauler and their fun vehicle to be individual vehicles because they are established, have more disposable income and grew up believing to some degree that it reads as successful.

I will say my commute is about 18 miles round trip daily. I think when you start commuting every day-especially those doing 30+ miles each way - likely find the higher ride is more reassuring. Until people quit buying F-250’s and Chevy Tahoes and adding 4” lifts (and these same people probably are drawn to Jeeps/Broncos and Scouts and will likely add 37’s on the base with lifts) the size war will continue making forward sight lines tough from a safety standpoint for the smaller cars following. I know when we drive I-95 south and around YOUR city-(honestly any given mile of I-95) my wife is very uncomfortable unless she can see around or at least ”through” the vehicle in front of her due to the idiots driving and texting and braking every 20 seconds because they aren’t focused.
Scout Motors figuring this one out will be a challenge as size of vehicles is currently directly proportional to battery range/quantities to fit vehicle.
I read an article probably 6 months ago that a battery company was exploring 3-D printing the battery cells so they could theoretically be sized to fit within hollow body panels, thus utilizing wasted space to reduce the battery cell block below the vehicle. Conceptually it’s a very cool idea.
Regarding mini vans-well those are similar to wagons, at least in my wife’s opinion and many women’s opinions I know. There is an association with vans being for stay at home moms and many of the professional women I know refuse to drive them and prefer a larger SUV-(Honda Pilot/Toyota Highlander/bmw x5 or Volvo/Acura 3-row SUVs.). Always fascinating because I think mini vans are extremely comfortable to ride in-but I also refuse to drive one . Even if it’s called a Swagger Wagon.
I will also add that I came VERY close to picking up a Mini Cooper until my wife saw one crushed on the side of I-95 between Philly and Maryland line. Side note-once saw Oscar Meyer mobile broken down on side of I-95 north of DC. Always thought that was a funny call to AAA. Hello-“my wiener is broken, can you help?”