A Tall Order

[Scotty]

If I were to try to consolidate all the suggestions and ideas I've seen here to this point, the main theme would be: "Make the new Scout like our old beloved Scout." While this is indicative of a true love and passion for the classic Scout, it is of course impossible, impractical, and not marketable.

Folks, I hate to break it to you, but there is no way VW is going to make an extreme rock crawler with 2 doors and removable top. While that might be what you and I want, it would never sell in the numbers required to pay for the effort. I am sure VW will do their best to appeal to off-road enthusiasts, but we are not their primary customer.

A vehicle which truly does justice to the name seems unlikely. Such a vehicle would have to be simple, rugged, and utilitarian. These are not qualities in demand in today's marketplace. Today's buyer demands an interior bristling with electronic do-dads, power assists, and heated everything. The motor will have to put out the equivalent of 400 BHP, because how could you possibly be expected to drive a vehicle with less? I'm sure the body will be fine, but if there is a question of breakover angle vs. cargo space specs. which one do you think will win?

The other thing which I personally see as a challenge is warming up to a foreign company brand for such a quintessential American nostalgic name. For me the VW name will always be associated with Hitler and funding for his war effort. More recent history are the scandals such as the diesel emissions cheating. For me, the VW brand is just not a positive image, although I know I am in the minority here.

It is interesting to follow the process as it unfolds. I do appreciate the apparent effort that VW is taking to inform and involve the community, and I have my hopes up that this revival will be different than some recent competitors offerings. I just realise there is a market reality that does not align with most classic Scout enthusiast's desires.

 

[IdahoJOAT]

If I were to try to consolidate all the suggestions and ideas I've seen here to this point, the main theme would be: "Make the new Scout like our old beloved Scout." While this is indicative of a true love and passion for the classic Scout, it is of course impossible, impractical, and not marketable.

Folks, I hate to break it to you, but there is no way VW is going to make an extreme rock crawler with 2 doors and removable top. While that might be what you and I want, it would never sell in the numbers required to pay for the effort. I am sure VW will do their best to appeal to off-road enthusiasts, but we are not their primary customer.

A vehicle which truly does justice to the name seems unlikely. Such a vehicle would have to be simple, rugged, and utilitarian. These are not qualities in demand in today's marketplace. Today's buyer demands an interior bristling with electronic do-dads, power assists, and heated everything. The motor will have to put out the equivalent of 400 BHP, because how could you possibly be expected to drive a vehicle with less? I'm sure the body will be fine, but if there is a question of breakover angle vs. cargo space specs. which one do you think will win?

The other thing which I personally see as a challenge is warming up to a foreign company brand for such a quintessential American nostalgic name. For me the VW name will always be associated with Hitler and funding for his war effort. More recent history are the scandals such as the diesel emissions cheating. For me, the VW brand is just not a positive image, although I know I am in the minority here.

It is interesting to follow the process as it unfolds. I do appreciate the apparent effort that VW is taking to inform and involve the community, and I have my hopes up that this revival will be different than some recent competitors offerings. I just realise there is a market reality that does not align with most classic Scout enthusiast's desires.

I totally see what you're saying and the spirit of your post, but I look at the 4 door Jeep as the prime example of what I hope Scout Motors does.

The Jeep was a single persons car. It was a toy for anyone else...

Until the JKU hit the market. Suddenly 80% of Jeep Wrangler sales were of the 4 door version.

My family is in this category. We needed something for my wife to DD and haul the kiddos. Sure we had the 2014 Fusion. It fit the bill. But the JLUR had the passenger space, the boot space, was a GREAT color(bikini pearl) and was fun as all hell, top down/doors off or not.

The 4 door Jeep and Bronco shows that offroad capability and DD utility are very much attainable.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

If it helps, the team here is very aware that it is a tall order and is mindful of both the heritage and history of the Scout brand.

You bring up a number of good points regarding what a vehicle like the Scout needs to be and that is different for every customer as you can see from the diversity of opinions in this forum alone. Rock crawling, for example, is a very specific niche with a diehard enthusiast following that is willing to suffer through damage, breakage and more to a vehicle that often isn't their daily driver.

I've had some modern day SUV's out at Hell's Revenge in Moab and truthfully whether people like it or not, they can do 80-90 percent of the trails if they have locking diffs front and rear and the approach angles and articulation. Making the components robust enough, getting the most out of articulation with modern suspensions and more are all tough things to pull off and still make the majority of people happy with the way it rides and drives in daily life. It's a balance as you also don't want to drive the price to the moon either.

Personally don't count us out yet as I think we can still surprise people and the team here really understands that. It can't be everything to everyone, but we'll do our best to make it live up to the Scout name.

 

[IdahoJOAT]

If it helps, the team here is very aware that it is a tall order and is mindful of both the heritage and history of the Scout brand.

You bring up a number of good points regarding what a vehicle like the Scout needs to be and that is different for every customer as you can see from the diversity of opinions in this forum alone. Rock crawling, for example, is a very specific niche with a diehard enthusiast following that is willing to suffer through damage, breakage and more to a vehicle that often isn't their daily driver.

I've had some modern day SUV's out at Hell's Revenge in Moab and truthfully whether people like it or not, they can do 80-90 percent of the trails if they have locking diffs front and rear and the approach angles and articulation. Making the components robust enough, getting the most out of articulation with modern suspensions and more are all tough things to pull off and still make the majority of people happy with the way it rides and drives in daily life. It's a balance as you also don't want to drive the price to the moon either.

Personally don't count us out yet as I think we can still surprise people and the team here really understands that. It can't be everything to everyone, but we'll do our best to make it live up to the Scout name.

Already Jamie, you and Chris' commitment to this forum speaks volumes.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Already Jamie, you and Chris' commitment to this forum speaks volumes.

Thanks! We're excited.

 

[Scotty]

Personally don't count us out yet as I think we can still surprise people and the team here really understands that. It can't be everything to everyone, but we'll do our best to make it live up to the Scout name.

I don't mean to be a curmudgeon here. VW is a major global force in automotive manufacturing, and they do have the means to create a wonderful vehicle. No matter what the result though, there will be a group that doesn't like it. That's why it is such a tall order to build a new product that lives up to the nostalgia of the original.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

I don't mean to be a curmudgeon here. VW is a major global force in automotive manufacturing, and they do have the means to create a wonderful vehicle. No matter what the result though, there will be a group that doesn't like it. That's why it is such a tall order to build a new product that lives up to the nostalgia of the original.

No worries I got what you meant!

 

[jtorre4272]

If I were to try to consolidate all the suggestions and ideas I've seen here to this point, the main theme would be: "Make the new Scout like our old beloved Scout." While this is indicative of a true love and passion for the classic Scout, it is of course impossible, impractical, and not marketable.

Folks, I hate to break it to you, but there is no way VW is going to make an extreme rock crawler with 2 doors and removable top. While that might be what you and I want, it would never sell in the numbers required to pay for the effort. I am sure VW will do their best to appeal to off-road enthusiasts, but we are not their primary customer.

A vehicle which truly does justice to the name seems unlikely. Such a vehicle would have to be simple, rugged, and utilitarian. These are not qualities in demand in today's marketplace. Today's buyer demands an interior bristling with electronic do-dads, power assists, and heated everything. The motor will have to put out the equivalent of 400 BHP, because how could you possibly be expected to drive a vehicle with less? I'm sure the body will be fine, but if there is a question of breakover angle vs. cargo space specs. which one do you think will win?

The other thing which I personally see as a challenge is warming up to a foreign company brand for such a quintessential American nostalgic name. For me the VW name will always be associated with Hitler and funding for his war effort. More recent history are the scandals such as the diesel emissions cheating. For me, the VW brand is just not a positive image, although I know I am in the minority here.

It is interesting to follow the process as it unfolds. I do appreciate the apparent effort that VW is taking to inform and involve the community, and I have my hopes up that this revival will be different than some recent competitors offerings. I just realise there is a market reality that does not align with most classic Scout enthusiast's desires.

I respectfully disagree. Bronco and jeep have a variety of trim levels intended for a broad spectrum of customers. Anything from a mall crawler to a Moab challenger. A well informed vehicle architecture team can strive for entry level and halo offerings on the same platform. Whats critical is ensuring the static geometry is robust enough to accommodate on road and off road requirements up front. Not after the fact when a more capable product is desired after initial introduction.

 

[IdahoJOAT]

I respectfully disagree. Bronco and jeep have a variety of trim levels intended for a broad spectrum of customers. Anything from a mall crawler to a Moab challenger. A well informed vehicle architecture team can strive for entry level and halo offerings on the same platform. Whats critical is ensuring the static geometry is robust enough to accommodate on road and off road requirements up front. Not after the fact when a more capable product is desired after initial introduction.

+1. Well said.

 

[LastDayScout]

I see both sides. But, there is already an example. That’s why there is a Jeep Sahara and Rubicon (and many more). Get the basics done right and trim it out to suit the customer needs. I live on the coast and will likely never see any rock crawling. But I do like ground clearance and versatility. I just hope for the best rust proofing ever and air suspension.

 

[IdahoJOAT]

I see both sides. But, there is already an example. That’s why there is a Jeep Sahara and Rubicon (and many more). Get the basics done right and trim it out to suit the customer needs. I live on the coast and will likely never see any rock crawling. But I do like ground clearance and versatility. I just hope for the best rust proofing ever and air suspension.

I've seen this several times, what's the appeal of air suspension?

 

[Scotty]

I respectfully disagree. Bronco and jeep have a variety of trim levels intended for a broad spectrum of customers. Anything from a mall crawler to a Moab challenger. A well informed vehicle architecture team can strive for entry level and halo offerings on the same platform. Whats critical is ensuring the static geometry is robust enough to accommodate on road and off road requirements up front. Not after the fact when a more capable product is desired after initial introduction.

Yeah, I'm sure the designers have a modular approach in mind. The Bronco and Wrangler are direct competitors, but they have the advantage of ICE. More directly, the competition is the EV Hummer, but that costs over $100k and weighs in at 9,000 pounds. It is probably the most off-road capable EV today, but those specs reveal the reality of physics and the market.

My main point therefore is that the reality of modern safety standards, physics of EVs, and the marketplace will result in a vehicle that disappoints the majority of Scout enthusiasts. The compromises that will have to be made one way or another will result in an end product that is deviates far from the ideals of the classic Scout. But a successful product will either be a popular alternative to the Subarus and Hyundais, or able to go head-to-head with the Hummer at a similar price point.

These may be a stretch, but it's almost like Bollywood trying to remake "Gone With The Wind" or an Australian boy band called "The Beetles". Impossible? Maybe not, but definitely a tall order. I am definitely interested in following along to see the approach taken.

 

[LastDayScout]

I've seen this several times, what's the appeal of air suspension?

I had it on a grand Cherokee and my wife had it on her x5. Ride is great and both have adjustable ride height. It floods where I am and it’s a nice feature.

 

[jtorre4272]

I had it on a grand Cherokee and my wife had it on her x5. Ride is great and both have adjustable ride height. It floods where I am and it’s a nice feature.

Yeah, ride height can easily be adjusted based on a drive mode. Better range can be achieved with reduced Cd. Better ground clearance on the other end of spectrum. Rivian does this on the R1T. It’s a novelty but comes with trade offs. One trade off is robustness to damage in Off road conditions. Another is package space needed for tanks on a vehicle that already uses an enormous battery. Ride quality isn’t always better though when ride height is increased because it forces the system to be biased to have less rebound travel (bottom out)

 

[IdahoJOAT]

Yeah, ride height can easily be adjusted based on a drive mode. Better range can be achieved with reduced Cd. Better ground clearance on the other end of spectrum. Rivian does this on the R1T. It’s a novelty but comes with trade offs. One trade off is robustness to damage in Off road conditions. Another is package space needed for tanks on a vehicle that already uses an enormous battery. Ride quality isn’t always better though when ride height is increased because it forces the system to be biased to have less rebound travel (bottom out)

So this is a concern where if it's a novelty AND it's less durable, I'd rather not have that one the Scout. Just my $0.02.

 

[LastDayScout]

So this is a concern where if it's a novelty AND it's less durable, I'd rather not have that one the Scout. Just my $0.02.

I thought that until I rode in vehicles that have it. My father has had several Ram 1500s with air suspension without issue. It’s pretty great. Maybe not for all trim levels though.

 

[IdahoJOAT]

I thought that until I rode in vehicles that have it. My father has had several Ram 1500s with air suspension without issue. It’s pretty great. Maybe not for all trim levels though.

Great feedback.

 

[PapaTire]

At this point we can do nothing more than speculate as to what Scout will be. Will it be body on frame or unibody? This will be a potential polarizing decision. My $0.02 thinks we could see something that is a mashup of Rivian & New Bronco. I could imagine there will be a wide range of trim levels covering a large price range with Entry level models in the upper $40s to loaded models in the upper $80s based on what we have seen with other recent EV offerings.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Yeah, I'm sure the designers have a modular approach in mind. The Bronco and Wrangler are direct competitors, but they have the advantage of ICE. More directly, the competition is the EV Hummer, but that costs over $100k and weighs in at 9,000 pounds. It is probably the most off-road capable EV today, but those specs reveal the reality of physics and the market.

My main point therefore is that the reality of modern safety standards, physics of EVs, and the marketplace will result in a vehicle that disappoints the majority of Scout enthusiasts. The compromises that will have to be made one way or another will result in an end product that is deviates far from the ideals of the classic Scout. But a successful product will either be a popular alternative to the Subarus and Hyundais, or able to go head-to-head with the Hummer at a similar price point.

These may be a stretch, but it's almost like Bollywood trying to remake "Gone With The Wind" or an Australian boy band called "The Beetles". Impossible? Maybe not, but definitely a tall order. I am definitely interested in following along to see the approach taken.

I think a realistic approach as you point out is always good. Trying to compare a vehicle that was last made 42 years ago to a new one today is definitely a tall order. The auto industry has moved on exponentially since then and modern safety standards, EPA requirements, and the number of features consumers expect have changed things quite a bit.

One example of difficult decisions that some may not realize is how to handle a shorter wheelbase two-door. If you shorten the wheelbase, you reduce the amount of space for batteries, and thus the overall range of the vehicle. So do you offer the vehicle in a two-door but with the same wheelbase as the four-door? Is there enough of a market to support such a model? Do you need to do more to make the model unique in some way? If you do that will four-door owners feel left out or upset? And on and on...

I use that as just one example of TONS of decisions that go into deciding what products to offer. You also have to look at the product lifecycle as a whole and what types of additional trim levels you offer or variations on the existing model. Or what additional models does Scout also offer after the initial SUV and pickup truck models? Lots of discussion on our end that has been endless and will continue to be something that fuels us in the future.

Just more food for thought on what has to go on behind the scenes. We are thoroughly enjoying the comments and suggestions so keep them coming.

 

[bcb1]

Are you guys early enough in the process to still be deciding on ICE, EV, or both offerings? Or has the decision already been made for EV only? And if EV only - is hybrid considered, or strictly battery only?

If EV only - I understand on the 2 door dilemma of battery pack placement and size vs range. Thats where a hybrid would work great, if you are even considering that as an option.

I have to stick with my advice to offer both 2 door and 4 door regardless of how you work out battery pack size and placement, wheelbase, platform, etc. Unless it would make the 2 door so awkward looking that no one would buy it lol.

Some really good early renderings would be great.