It appears that VW is starting a joint venture with Rivian. I wonder how this will affect the Scout? Will they be developing tech that makes it into the Scout? Seems a bit late to make it into the first version, but maybe an updated version. Or perhaps the reporting is a bit old and even as we speak those new Rivian motors are being bolted into the Scout engineering mule.
VW is investing in Rivian
- Thread starter Albal
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It will be interesting to see how it plays out but it could be concerning for a few different reasons. The worst case scenario would be that VW now has an established (relatively) EV partner in the US and they may back out of their agreement with Scout. Another scenario is this becomes a joint venture between VW, Rivian, and Scout. In which case Scout would lose some of its autonomy. On the positive side, it would benefit Scout to be able to tap into the tech, knowledge, and experience of Rivian.
I found this interesting because the NYT article on the same subject said that it would be possible for ScoutMotors to use this software under the agreement VW-Rivian made. It doesn't say they will use it like it does in this Reuters article. I think overall it will net benefit Scout though because of the kind of software and elements that Rivian has been overcoming. Whether Scout actually uses the software made or adapts their own software based on the issues Rivian has run into before we'll just have to wait and see. Considering that both articles I read on it stating it'll be the latter part of this decade that any of the actual software will be used in a production vehicle means these first Scouts will probably not be using much if any of the code/platform from Rivian.
I'm all for this though. If ScoutMotors wasn't in this venture I'd probably be looking to purchase a Rivian product
My only concern is who wins/loses if they venture and share components? If Rivians are 20-30% more $ then does Scout steal the deal? If they share more and sell side by side is the opportunity for direct sales a solid opportunity-that’s certainly a win for Scout. I guess it ultimately comes down to what the Scout ends up looking like and $$$.
I now definitely think Scout has to have removable top of some variation to separate itself from the new R2S.
I now definitely think Scout has to have removable top of some variation to separate itself from the new R2S.
Is there an advantage for battery production? Currently Rivian batteries are sourced from Korea so is there a venture opportunity there as well to get American made batteries and “share” the development/production costs? I just feel like out of the gate all PR has been American Scout/Revive the sScout/on our own. Then the design prototypes get outsourced )which is OK-I guess. Then VWAG says they’ll share the platform with Audi (Maybe?) and now a partnership with Rivian. With another 1-1/2 years to go what else will be sourced/shared/partnered? Guess I’ll keep my fingers crossed and still believe the execs know what is best for an amazing EV vehicle.
Keep the info flowing.
Keep the info flowing.
Canoo skateboard tech as a potential partner up.
And it may all be smoke and mirrors. Ford was invested heavily in Rivian until Rivian was geared up to produce vehicles. The Ford bailed out to pursue the F150 Lightning all on their own (or with usurped tech?)
Rivian is now poised to produce Bronco-sized SUVs in addition to Explorer/F150 size. My hope still is the Scout will be sized like the R2, not R1, like Ranger, Gladiator
I think the Scout will be very different than the R2. Rivian has a very distinct and unique brand look and feel and Scout has a lot of opportunity to differentiate itself from Rivian. Rivans are more refined, sleeker looking vehicles. They're being marketed as "adventure" vehicles that are just as comfortable among office towers as they are in the woods. Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel that Scout is aiming at a more salt-of-the-earth type of buyer. More farmer and less accountant if you know what I mean. And I think that will work well for the brand.
Even if they end up being stablemates under the same umbrella and offering vehicles in the same market space with similar capabilities there's plenty of room for both. They'll both end up needing to steal market share away from Jeep either way but I think Rivian buyers won't necessarily be the same as Scout buyers.
If Scout gets to use the software that would be amazing. Rivian has awesome software whereas VW kinda famously fell on their face in that department with the ID3 and ID4. So if Scout could take only one thing from Rivian I'd suggest grabbing that software!
As for batteries I think the IRA will make it so both companies source them domestically. There are a bunch of battery plants being built here in Canada so I could see both companies switching over to using those cells. Batteries are a commodity product so there's nothing really special about them if the come from Korea vs anywhere else. That was probably just the only supply deal they could get for the price/timeline they needed.
I think this will be good. Rivian gets much needed capital in a very capital-intensive industry and Scout gets access to state-of-the-art, well proven, next-gen EV technology. Rivan has amazing talent an has been working hard on this stuff much longer than Scout has so this is definintely going to benefit Scout if they're getting access to a decade's worth of EV tech development. I see this as a legit win-win and will mean that Scout could very well be the industry leader right out of the gate with its very first product.
I totally agree. I'm really hoping the Scouts will be R2 sized and not huge three row behemoths as well. I want a four door Bronco, but electric, and with much better build quality.
I think Ford probably extracted as much IP as it could get away with before cutting ties with Rivian. Seems like that's how they'd roll.
As for Canoo, I never really know what to think about them. They seem very vapourware but yet apparently can and do make actual vehicles that they occaisonally actually deliver to companies so they're kinda of half real company and half hype it seems. Their Bulldog thing looks really cool but I just don't know if I can get excited about them since they always seem to be on the verge of going belly-up. Canoo's weird.
Talk abput belly up, glad I did not spring recently for an almost free Fiskar Ocean. It's one thing to get parts and service after Pontiac-Olds-Saab- Plymouth-Mercury-etc have gone away but where do you get parts or service for Fiskar or Lordstown Motors?
This deal between VW and Rivian raises so many questions!
The details about what exactly VW gives Rivian and what they get in return are murky. The “news reporters” seem to be introducing their own speculation.
Do VW remain committed to Scout? Rivian urgently need a factory and have put their plans to build a new one on hold because they don’t have cash. Let’s hope VW have not decided to give Rivian the factory they are building for Scout.
Is there a conflict of interest because Rivian and Scout are seen as competitors in the same space? I don’t think so. Rivian’s upcoming affordable vehicles lack the off road capabilities of the R1, so Rivian have tied being highly capable off road to luxury. I think that’s a big mistake that leaves a giant gap in the market for Scout, so much so that they are not really competitor’s at all. Hopefully, VW’s investment in Rivian is an expression of confidence that this is the case.
The details about what exactly VW gives Rivian and what they get in return are murky. The “news reporters” seem to be introducing their own speculation.
Do VW remain committed to Scout? Rivian urgently need a factory and have put their plans to build a new one on hold because they don’t have cash. Let’s hope VW have not decided to give Rivian the factory they are building for Scout.
Is there a conflict of interest because Rivian and Scout are seen as competitors in the same space? I don’t think so. Rivian’s upcoming affordable vehicles lack the off road capabilities of the R1, so Rivian have tied being highly capable off road to luxury. I think that’s a big mistake that leaves a giant gap in the market for Scout, so much so that they are not really competitor’s at all. Hopefully, VW’s investment in Rivian is an expression of confidence that this is the case.
I doubt Scout would be forced to give up its factory, Rivian is already well along in the design and build process of their own factory site and just needed more capital to get it done so I don’t see that as being a risk here.
As for being competitors I see like this; Rivian is to Land Rover as Scout is to Jeep. Sure they technically compete in the same space but they are going after very different segments. I think it’s as you say, an expression of confidence on the part of VW but also it gives VW some much needed access to good EV software and systems.
Just seems like a huge investvestment-$5BILLION to get software. Guess that premium is like fast pass at Disney and jumps you to front of line. $5 Billion buys a lot of Rivian tech developers as well as other fields (Apple, Nvidia, etc) to develop in house and share across entire VWAG sub companies.
Not against the deal just wondering what the bigger picture is?
Does Rivian have flexible capacity to build Scouts sooner at their plant and share the platform for new SM SUV and R2S? Do plants share down the road and one builds trucks for each and other builds SUV’s?
Or ultimately is is just a really expensive software deal? But what does VW give in return???? Buying power to reduce costs for Rivian?
A lot of speculation on all of our parts
Not against the deal just wondering what the bigger picture is?
Does Rivian have flexible capacity to build Scouts sooner at their plant and share the platform for new SM SUV and R2S? Do plants share down the road and one builds trucks for each and other builds SUV’s?
Or ultimately is is just a really expensive software deal? But what does VW give in return???? Buying power to reduce costs for Rivian?
A lot of speculation on all of our parts
Since Rivian doesn't support carplay, does this mean that the Scout will also not support it? Hopefully when the Rivian devs create the Scout version they'll add it in.
If this is all about in-car software it is a big mistake!
Rivian’s user experience is not as bad as some of the other’s but it’s still not great and the owners I hear just keep hoping future updates will improve things.
Meanwhile VW’s in-car entertainment software is apparently built on kubernetes which is a terrible technology stack that basically runs apps inside an app. Then Scout hired as its CTO the guy that oversaw some universally panned in-car tech user experience at Fisker. This gives me very low confidence that Scout will deliver a great tech experience.
All I want is physical buttons for all the cars essential functions and full support for Carplay (and Android Auto) including the new Carplay’s customizable instrument clusters. Supporting the Carplay platform makes it possible for individuals and small teams to create apps that run in the car with very little work. This expands customer choice in apps and services and allows the customer to benefit from future innovation. Locking down the experience to Scouts services and service partners would be a very, very bad idea.
The vehicle’s default built-in entertainment systems should be very, very basic, offering bluetooth connectivity etc. Scout should put zero work into bespoke integration of third party services from Spotify, Apple Music, Google Maps etc. Just leave all that to CarPlay and Android Auto where there are already hundreds of apps. There should probably be one built-in mapping system that would obviously have to be free like it is on phones.
Scout should probably make some CarPlay and Android Auto apps themselves. For example, an AM/FM radio is very useful for emergencies and venturing off grid. There should be a Scout CarPlay App that controls the vehicles radio that sits alongside all the other in-car entertainment apps that the users has installed on their phone.
The in-car software should not be very hard. Just keep it simple and take advantage of all the work Apple, Google and hundreds of developers for their platforms have already done. Rivian are going in the wrong direction when it comes to in-car software, shunning CarPlay entirely and building high cost bespoke systems that have high maintenance, high technical debt and high security burden.
Rivian’s user experience is not as bad as some of the other’s but it’s still not great and the owners I hear just keep hoping future updates will improve things.
Meanwhile VW’s in-car entertainment software is apparently built on kubernetes which is a terrible technology stack that basically runs apps inside an app. Then Scout hired as its CTO the guy that oversaw some universally panned in-car tech user experience at Fisker. This gives me very low confidence that Scout will deliver a great tech experience.
All I want is physical buttons for all the cars essential functions and full support for Carplay (and Android Auto) including the new Carplay’s customizable instrument clusters. Supporting the Carplay platform makes it possible for individuals and small teams to create apps that run in the car with very little work. This expands customer choice in apps and services and allows the customer to benefit from future innovation. Locking down the experience to Scouts services and service partners would be a very, very bad idea.
The vehicle’s default built-in entertainment systems should be very, very basic, offering bluetooth connectivity etc. Scout should put zero work into bespoke integration of third party services from Spotify, Apple Music, Google Maps etc. Just leave all that to CarPlay and Android Auto where there are already hundreds of apps. There should probably be one built-in mapping system that would obviously have to be free like it is on phones.
Scout should probably make some CarPlay and Android Auto apps themselves. For example, an AM/FM radio is very useful for emergencies and venturing off grid. There should be a Scout CarPlay App that controls the vehicles radio that sits alongside all the other in-car entertainment apps that the users has installed on their phone.
The in-car software should not be very hard. Just keep it simple and take advantage of all the work Apple, Google and hundreds of developers for their platforms have already done. Rivian are going in the wrong direction when it comes to in-car software, shunning CarPlay entirely and building high cost bespoke systems that have high maintenance, high technical debt and high security burden.
Found the VW press release, which was informative.
www.volkswagen-group.com
To summarize, first a guaranteed $1 billion investment in Rivian. Then a possible, but not guaranteed, joint venture centered around the low-level hardware/software that all cars have. This is not the user interface level stuff, but the behind-the-scenes low level stuff. Apparently Rivian is working on a modern "zonal" architecture that minimizes the amount of wiring and ECUs (tiny limited-purpose computers) in a car, which is typically vast. So, big per-car $$ savings with the new electrical architecture. If their architecture is flexible enough to be used on VW products too, then the joint venture should proceed, along with further investments by VW.
That's it. No UI stuff. All low-level things that you're not even aware of and have no impact on the "personality" or branding of the car.
Volkswagen AG resolves on investment by Volkswagen of initially 1 billion USD in Rivian Automotive, Inc., and intends to establish a joint venture
Mobility for generations to come.
To summarize, first a guaranteed $1 billion investment in Rivian. Then a possible, but not guaranteed, joint venture centered around the low-level hardware/software that all cars have. This is not the user interface level stuff, but the behind-the-scenes low level stuff. Apparently Rivian is working on a modern "zonal" architecture that minimizes the amount of wiring and ECUs (tiny limited-purpose computers) in a car, which is typically vast. So, big per-car $$ savings with the new electrical architecture. If their architecture is flexible enough to be used on VW products too, then the joint venture should proceed, along with further investments by VW.
That's it. No UI stuff. All low-level things that you're not even aware of and have no impact on the "personality" or branding of the car.
GM also doesn't support CarPlay but the Honda Prologue which is built on the GM Blazer EV platform does so I don't we can assume that just because Rivian doesn't have CarPlay Scout won't either.
We are excited by the possibilities to work with Rivian in the future. For now, we are heads down continuing everything we've been working on and when we have more specific information we will let you all know. It is early, but there are some great possibilities.
