Speculation Alert - possible Harvester Engine Choices

[dearbulls]

Yes, I had some mislabled units in the first post, but glad that the math generally checks out.

For the KW to HP conversion, I just used converters online like this one.

View attachment 3514

But you're right, there is some additional inefficiencies in charging a quick search says 12-15% energy lost in charging. So you'd have to scale the power output of the generator to account for the NET needs of the vehicle, not the gross needs.

Meaning the Rivian would be 29kw of NET energy in an hour. So 29KW/H x 1.15 to account for the 15% energy loss in charging would need a generator of producing a net ~33KW/H of energy.

So a Scout with a hypothetical 1.8 KW per mile consumption at 70mph would need a ~61HP generator (39KW x 1.15 = ~45kw. 45KW = ~61hp).

I do disagree with the last statement you said though. A 50kw generator would not make it the least efficient vehicle on the road, at all, or even by a long shot. I mean, the Ramcharger is going to use a 130kw generator (a 3.6L V6 running very detuned). So that would be ~almost 3x less efficient if that was the case. And then most combustion vehicles on the road are using ~150-300hp engines. I know they aren't running at maximum output on the highway for most of them, but then again ~61hp to move a 4-8k lb SUV/Truck through the air at 70mph, isn't inefficient in my mind.

KW•H, not KW/H. 2 different math calculations

 

[KElkhorn]

OK I think I got it.
The Harvester turns the dial to 11. Thus more power.

Why not just make 10 louder?

 

[chucchinchilla]

Volkswagen EA211 3-cylinder engine. Sufficient power range on that engine to provide what Scout needs and the graphics during the preso highlight 3 cylinders.

 

[dearbulls]

Volkswagen EA211 3-cylinder engine. Sufficient power range on that engine to provide what Scout needs and the graphics during the preso highlight 3 cylinders.

From that 3 direct exhaust?

 

[dearbulls]

This more closely aligns with what I have been envisioning.

I would personally be surprised if we see a generator as small as the i3 REX had, as even that small vehicle was underpowered when it was reduced to using just the output from the generator, and the Scouts are much larger vehicles.


We already know that the EV only range is ~150 miles for the Harvester, which gives us a rough estimation of the battery pack size.

If we assume a ~2 miles per KW efficiency on the highway, that means it will have to have a ~75kw of effective battery pack size (which, interestingly is almost identical to what the Ram Ramcharger has spec'd. Its 92KW gross, but ~76kw effective).

This also means that the total energy expenditure to reach 500 miles would be 250kw (if we are assuming 2 miles per kw still, to make the math easy). So that means that the generator will have to be able to supply the other 175kw of energy (250kw total energy required - 75kw of useable battery == 175kw of energy from the generator).

The question really becomes is the design target to get 500 miles of range when the battery drops to zero (because the generator cannot keep up with demand) OR if the design intends the generator to keep up with energy demands, and therefore reaches its 500mile range when the gas tank of the generator runs out.

The BMW i3 REX was using strategy #1. And the Ram has already said that they will will use strategy #2 on the Ramcharger, which is why they're using a 130-190kw engine.

Again, personally I'm thinking (wishing?) the most likely scenario is closer to strategy #2. But we don't know, and likely won't for a while which strategy they are going to use. There really aren't many data points for what a "normal" EREV functions like afaik.

Just to clarify. In your math, assuming 2mi/kwh which I think is reasonable, 500 mi for full battery would require 250kwh if it is BEV. Correct.

Were you referring that REE will provide equal to 175kwh energy to deliver 500 mi? If so, that means a 175kw engine need to run for 1 hour, full gas at its peak output, to provide 175kwh.

And this is assuming no energy loss at all, which is not true.

Pentastar 3.6 v6 of ram, can generate 280 to 305hp, which is roughly 220kw. How much it can generate depending on how much gas and it's revs.

 

[Logan]

From that 3 direct exhaust?

Just to clarify. In your math, assuming 2mi/kwh which I think is reasonable, 500 mi for full battery would require 250kwh if it is BEV. Correct.

Were you referring that REE will provide equal to 175kwh energy to deliver 500 mi? If so, that means a 175kw engine need to run for 1 hour, full gas at its peak output, to provide 175kwh.

And this is assuming no energy loss at all, which is not true.

Pentastar 3.6 v6 of ram, can generate 280 to 305hp, which is roughly 220kw. How much it can generate depending on how much gas and it's revs.

Close. I'm talking net power for the most part, not gross. No matter what the gross output of the generator is, as long as it meets the net power requirements, we're good.

So we agree that 2 miles per kwh seems reasonable for consumption.

The confirmed EV only range of the Harvester is targeted at 150 miles, which means 75KW of energy used, to go that distance. Lets assume that is the effective size of the battery.

And if total range is 500 miles, which would take 250kw of energy to travel. If 75kw is coming from the battery, then the rest of the energy (175kw, net) has to come from the harvester engine and gasoline.

What we don't know is at what rate it will generate that power. It could be anywhere from a huge engine that can produce 175kw (net, after charging losses/inefficiencies) in an hour, or a tiny engine that produces 25kw per hour (net), which would take 7 hours to produce the total 175kw (25kw per hour x 7 hours = 175kw). Either of those extremes would meet what they have said, but it depends on what it is that they're designing for.

I'm thinking it is more likely to be something in the 40-100kw per hour range. The 3 cylinder engine referenced above is something featured in a youtube video theorizing things, and is capable of 85kw (115hp) at peak (~5k rpm). So that would likely sustain the vehicle at highway speeds while unladen (ie, not towing), but not sure how much headroom that leaves/

The Ramcharger has said that they will run their V6 at 130kw, but can peak as high as 190kw, so it appears to be detuned compared to the normal version found in traditional combustion vehicles.

 

[dearbulls]

Close. I'm talking net power for the most part, not gross. No matter what the gross output of the generator is, as long as it meets the net power requirements, we're good.

So we agree that 2 miles per kwh seems reasonable for consumption.

The confirmed EV only range of the Harvester is targeted at 150 miles, which means 75KW of energy used, to go that distance. Lets assume that is the effective size of the battery.

And if total range is 500 miles, which would take 250kw of energy to travel. If 75kw is coming from the battery, then the rest of the energy (175kw, net) has to come from the harvester engine and gasoline.

What we don't know is at what rate it will generate that power. It could be anywhere from a huge engine that can produce 175kw (net, after charging losses/inefficiencies) in an hour, or a tiny engine that produces 25kw per hour (net), which would take 7 hours to produce the total 175kw (25kw per hour x 7 hours = 175kw). Either of those extremes would meet what they have said, but it depends on what it is that they're designing for.

I'm thinking it is more likely to be something in the 40-100kw per hour range. The 3 cylinder engine referenced above is something featured in a youtube video theorizing things, and is capable of 85kw (115hp) at peak (~5k rpm). So that would likely sustain the vehicle at highway speeds while unladen (ie, not towing), but not sure how much headroom that leaves/

The Ramcharger has said that they will run their V6 at 130kw, but can peak as high as 190kw, so it appears to be detuned compared to the normal version found in traditional combustion vehicles.

It doesn't need to detune. All it needs is to not giving the full gas and revs too high. If you have seen dyno machine you'll know that when testing ICE vehicle, it's always testing full gas (pedal to metal) to give the top output. Say a 300hp engine you'll probably only use 100hp on daily drive. Running a 220kw engine to only put out 130kw means it has enough buffer, and probably keep revs under 3k. Benefits would be better fuel economy and less noise.
There are strong 3 cylinder engine like what's in the GR Corolla, over 300hp at 6500rpm.

 

[LastDayScout]

You think I'm stupid not knowing that? Read my replies above. I've been driving BEV for some years and I know exactly how EV performed

No. I do not think you are stupid. The way I read the post seemed as though you wanted the range extender to power the vehicle at freeway speed all by itself. I think you will find that over the last two years in this forum I’ve never insulted anyone or anything like that. This is a true community that shares, learns and cares. It’s made up of all sorts of people with different backgrounds and perspectives. That’s what makes it something special, and why Scout Motors actually looks at the forum to see what we think. I’m glad you’re on board. Keep posting and growing the community!

 

[J Alynn]

No. I do not think you are stupid. The way I read the post seemed as though you wanted the range extender to power the vehicle at freeway speed all by itself. I think you will find that over the last two years in this forum I’ve never insulted anyone or anything like that. This is a true community that shares, learns and cares. It’s made up of all sorts of people with different backgrounds and perspectives. That’s what makes it something special, and why Scout Motors actually looks at the forum to see what we think. I’m glad you’re on board. Keep posting and growing the community!

I can vouch for him. I’m sure it wasn’t intended to offend you.

 

[OIBScout]

That’s not the way a range extender works. It generates electricity to charge the battery. It’s not a hybrid drive system like you see in a performance car where the battery adds torque to the gas engine when accelerating and charges when decelerating.

A range extender in an electric vehicle (EV) is a supplementary power source designed to increase the vehicle's driving range. It's typically a small internal combustion engine (ICE) or a generator that provides additional power to the battery, allowing the EV to travel farther without needing to recharge immediately. This setup helps alleviate "range anxiety," which is the worry about running out of battery power before reaching a charging station.

Man, Scout Motors is going to have to do a MUCH BETTER job of explaining Harvester. Every third post is someone talking about “how much performance they’ll be getting from the engine.” It’s a mess.

 

[J Alynn]

Man, Scout Motors is going to have to do a MUCH BETTER job of explaining Harvester. Every third post is someone talking about “how much performance they’ll be getting from the engine.” It’s a mess.

I messaged Jamie earlier and told him the angry mob is headed to the castle . For all the joy I thought the world had when SM introduced the range extender I now feel like bar fights are breaking out all across the country.
When SM is ready to drop the nuggets of information they will do so with great clarity. They’ve already said they’re introducing news slowly to keep the excitement alive for the next two years. Bouncers got a lot of work until then!

 

[Logan]

I messaged Jamie earlier and told him the angry mob is headed to the castle . For all the joy I thought the world had when SM introduced the range extender I now feel like bar fights are breaking out all across the country.
When SM is ready to drop the nuggets of information they will do so with great clarity. They’ve already said they’re introducing news slowly to keep the excitement alive for the next two years. Bouncers got a lot of work until then!

Hey now, I think we’ve done a pretty good job of keeping the pitchforks and torches put away so far .

I think it’s a hot topic because it’s the model that is getting the most reservations/interest, while simultaneously being the one that has the least information. So we’re all “detective-ing” trying to see what makes the most sense. I do think we’ve narrowed it down though. The range extender is PROBABLY larger than the one in the BMW i3 REX, and PROBABLY smaller than the Ram Ramcharger .

I’m sure we’ll get more details when they’re ready. In the mean time, we’ll do our best to be patient and appreciate the info we do have.

Thanks Jamie .

 

[J Alynn]

Hey now, I think we’ve done a pretty good job of keeping the pitchforks and torches put away so far .

I think it’s a hot topic because it’s the model that is getting the most reservations/interest, while simultaneously being the one that has the least information. So we’re all “detective-ing” trying to see what makes the most sense. I do think we’ve narrowed it down though. The range extender is PROBABLY larger than the one in the BMW i3 REX, and PROBABLY smaller than the Ram Ramcharger .

I’m sure we’ll get more details when they’re ready. In the mean time, we’ll do our best to be patient and appreciate the info we do have.

Thanks Jamie .

It’s been pretty respectable thus far. Having a brand new Honda Pilot in the garage I have a back up so going full EV Traveler is a risk I’ll take. I get people’s concerns and interests. Otherwise I’d be doing Harvester (still thinking about the Harvester depending on post election chaos-one way or the other) not to mention the gas cover is such a SWEET design with the corn rows. I’m more about design than what is locked under hood or bottom of car to make it go so I’m just sitting on the sideline on this thread.
I’ve had plenty of debates on here already so I just chuckle at all the sleuthing that’s happening. Not to mention I’ve always understood plumbing but not electric. When the hot topic starts about the wiper fluid supply line I’m coming in hot

 

[CarTechGeek]

Man, Scout Motors is going to have to do a MUCH BETTER job of explaining Harvester. Every third post is someone talking about “how much performance they’ll be getting from the engine.” It’s a mess.

We all want interesting info right now (too much so in the Internet age), but no one actually needs the details right now.

Right now they have production intent concepts. That's a long way from a production finalized design.

They are more than 2 years from production, they probably have some ways to go before a lot of details are finalized. They don't want to give out information on something that is currently in flux.

 

[OIBScout]

We all want interesting info right now (too much so in the Internet age), but no one actually needs the details right now.

Right now they have production intent concepts. That's a long way from a production finalized design.

They are more than 2 years from production, they probably have some ways to go before a lot of details are finalized. They don't want to give out information on something that is currently in flux.

Of course, but I’m not really talking about performance as much as the stated design intent. Too many posts in this forum seem to be thinking they’re buying a hybrid drivetrain.

Scout Harvester is NOT a hybrid. SM seems to not be considering such an offering, and they should be focused down on getting the most out of the platform they’ve committed to.

It’s a BEV with range-extending gas-powered charger.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Hey now, I think we’ve done a pretty good job of keeping the pitchforks and torches put away so far .

I think it’s a hot topic because it’s the model that is getting the most reservations/interest, while simultaneously being the one that has the least information. So we’re all “detective-ing” trying to see what makes the most sense. I do think we’ve narrowed it down though. The range extender is PROBABLY larger than the one in the BMW i3 REX, and PROBABLY smaller than the Ram Ramcharger .

I’m sure we’ll get more details when they’re ready. In the mean time, we’ll do our best to be patient and appreciate the info we do have.

Thanks Jamie .

And we appreciate your patience.

Yes, details are limited for now as we want to set realistic expectations on range while we work towards production versions of the vehicles. While it will be 2+ years, we will have a LOT to talk about during development and testing. We are already building test mules, the factory is moving along nicely, our teams are constantly working through new and better solutions, battery tech incrementally improves, software continues to improve and evolve and so much more. While I'm sure having patience over the next two years will be tough at times, I think some of our original Scout Community forum contributors will tell you that the last two years went by surprisingly quick - and we didn't have any product to to talk about yet.

We are working on three different story/video programs right now: Rooted In Heritage, Driven By Community, and Forging The Future. These stories will tell a bit about Scout history, the Scout community, our road to production, and everything we're doing to bring the new Scout trucks to market.

So as soon as we can tell you all more details, we will. This forum will always be one of the first places to know.

 

[J Alynn]

And we appreciate your patience.

Yes, details are limited for now as we want to set realistic expectations on range while we work towards production versions of the vehicles. While it will be 2+ years, we will have a LOT to talk about during development and testing. We are already building test mules, the factory is moving along nicely, our teams are constantly working through new and better solutions, battery tech incrementally improves, software continues to improve and evolve and so much more. While I'm sure having patience over the next two years will be tough at times, I think some of our original Scout Community forum contributors will tell you that the last two years went by surprisingly quick - and we didn't have any product to to talk about yet.

We are working on three different story/video programs right now: Rooted In Heritage, Driven By Community, and Forging The Future. These stories will tell a bit about Scout history, the Scout community, our road to production, and everything we're doing to bring the new Scout trucks to market.

So as soon as we can tell you all more details, we will. This forum will always be one of the first places to know.

Thanks Jamie

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Until the battery is basically empty it can provide all the power you need just as with any other EV. But don’t expect the little Havester to maintain the battery forever, it just makes the battery last longer.

Most users will probably only need the Harvester a few times a year because the pure EV range is more than adequate for average everyday use. It’s only the longer trips where the Harvester comes into play. For those occasions it will be worth its weight in gold!

Scout have been listening to this forum. A lot of what you saw at launch is in line with what members here asked for. Scout are listening here and to the OG Scout community in general and they are bending to deliver what people really want. That’s one reason why these vehicles are already looking so great. It’s not a few engineers working in self-serving bubble, they are set up to work for the community. And it shows! Scott Keogh’s vision in setting this forum up years ago should be applauded.

Just to foster additional discussion, I’ll throw it out there that I quite often drive over 150 miles on a single trip. My family goes on a decent amount of weekend adventures and trail runs. Definitely more than a few times a year. I may have done that around 8 or more times this month actually. I had some vacation time, but still - just showing that this would be well over a few times a year for my use case. I believe it was already stated that Harvester battery only range will be in the 150 mile neighborhood.

 

[Bodie]

Of course, but I’m not really talking about performance as much as the stated design intent. Too many posts in this forum seem to be thinking they’re buying a hybrid drivetrain.

Scout Harvester is NOT a hybrid. SM seems to not be considering such an offering, and they should be focused down on getting the most out of the platform they’ve committed to.

It’s a BEV with range-extending gas-powered charger.

But it IS a hybrid. It's almost certainly a series hybrid and not a parallel hybrid, but it's still a hybrid powertrain.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46275944/series-hybrid-vs-parallel-hybrid-explained/

 

[CarTechGeek]

Of course, but I’m not really talking about performance as much as the stated design intent. Too many posts in this forum seem to be thinking they’re buying a hybrid drivetrain.

Scout Harvester is NOT a hybrid. SM seems to not be considering such an offering, and they should be focused down on getting the most out of the platform they’ve committed to.

It’s a BEV with range-extending gas-powered charger.

I haven't really seen much confusing it with a traditional hybrid. Just different expectations on the power output of the Range extender, and it expected capability.

At the lowest level, is something that can barely run highway speed on it's own (like BMW i3 Rex), or even lower, such that you need a constant draw from the battery to run highway speed. This would make many less happy.

In the middle is an assumption that you can run indefinitely on RE output at highway speeds. This probably the sweet spot of possibility, given the size of engine that will fit.

On top is assumption, or hope that you could do this while towing. This seems unlikely given the size of engine. You will extend the range of the battery by blending in the RE, but it seems very unlikely you can tow once the battery is flat.