Speculation Alert - possible Harvester Engine Choices

[R1TVT]

People are having such a hard time with the RE concept, but understand that the RE will NOT INCREASE power suddenly to the vehicle when the RE is running, as it is in no way shape or form connected to the drive train, NOR will it change the output of the large battery pack turning the electric motors... It will ONLY work to affect the SOC of the battery and the rate at which electrons are depleted while the vehicle is in motion

I'll bet that Scout Motors very intentionally called this a "RANGE EXTENDER" for a very specific reason:

The reason is that your RANGE WILL BE LIMITED (like in any other EV), and that it will not suddenly break the laws of thermodynamics. The Scout will just be LESS LIMITED with the RANGE EXTENDER.

A small gas motor (range extender) will generate electricity, then that electricity will be converted into BATTERY POWER. A small gas motor will allow for electrons to flow into the battery pack - this is happening while electrons are leaving battery pack (as the truck is running). The amount of electrons moving into the battery pack ARE NOT always equivalent to the electrons being disbursed to the electric motors turning the wheels and LEAVING THE BATTERY PACK.

The notion of "turtle mode"or "safe mode" happens when a battery becomes critically low. I can drive my R1T just as fast and hard at 10% SOC as I can at 100% SOC... Of course there will be SW in place to protect the battery and systems as SOC drops below a certain critically low level (details to be forthcoming from Scout Motors). Hope that helps.

 

[dearbulls]

People are having such a hard time with the RE concept, but understand that the RE will NOT INCREASE power suddenly to the vehicle when the RE is running, as it is in no way shape or form connected to the drive train, NOR will it change the output of the large battery pack turning the electric motors... It will ONLY work to affect the SOC of the battery and the rate at which electrons are depleted while the vehicle is in motion

I'll bet that Scout Motors very intentionally called this a "RANGE EXTENDER" for a very specific reason:

The reason is that your RANGE WILL BE LIMITED (like in any other EV), and that it will not suddenly break the laws of thermodynamics. The Scout will just be LESS LIMITED with the RANGE EXTENDER.

A small gas motor (range extender) will generate electricity, then that electricity will be converted into BATTERY POWER. A small gas motor will allow for electrons to flow into the battery pack - this is happening while electrons are leaving battery pack (as the truck is running). The amount of electrons moving into the battery pack ARE NOT always equivalent to the electrons being disbursed to the electric motors turning the wheels and LEAVING THE BATTERY PACK.

The notion of "turtle mode"or "safe mode" happens when a battery becomes critically low. I can drive my R1T just as fast and hard at 10% SOC as I can at 100% SOC... Of course there will be SW in place to protect the battery and systems as SOC drops below a certain critically low level (details to be forthcoming from Scout Motors). Hope that helps.

They are not the first in REEV. China has already had mature REEV products from various brands. Even ram uses technology from Chinese Leap Motors.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Is there someone at SM @Jamie@ScoutMotors maybe. That could help clarify this. Not getting into specifics, but a very vague high level. Can the Harvester power output impact vehicle performance, or will it only impact how much and how fast it can charge the battery.
And what happens when you have a "completely" drained battery and then add gas, will you slowly move along because if some software decision to sip as little power as possible, be fast enough to charge while you go about your day with no noticeable difference, or have to wait while the Harvester generates enough energy for you to make it somewhere.

Understand if you can't answer even at a high level.....but worth a shot.

Not yet.

We will discuss the range extender more extensively as development continues, and we are ready to give more definitive answers. I have lots of my own questions as well.

Our goal is to share as much as we can with all of you on this road to production. I personally think the range extender and the engineering and tech behind it will be really interesting, especially in all the use cases.

Meanwhile some healthy debate is good. Keep the feedback coming and let's avoid slinging too many arrows if we can.

Jamie

 

[Chaparral]

No matter what they do, I think the key factor to consider is the user experience. It shouldn't force you to slow down from highway speed when needed due to the SOC of battery, while still having gas in tank.

From the launch event, I think scout has mentioned about user experience several times. And since I've pre-ordered several vehicles lately from various manufacturers, they are the first company that setup a forum years before the production date. So I'm optimistic that Scout will listen to what we say here

Until the battery is basically empty it can provide all the power you need just as with any other EV. But don’t expect the little Havester to maintain the battery forever, it just makes the battery last longer.

Most users will probably only need the Harvester a few times a year because the pure EV range is more than adequate for average everyday use. It’s only the longer trips where the Harvester comes into play. For those occasions it will be worth its weight in gold!

Scout have been listening to this forum. A lot of what you saw at launch is in line with what members here asked for. Scout are listening here and to the OG Scout community in general and they are bending to deliver what people really want. That’s one reason why these vehicles are already looking so great. It’s not a few engineers working in self-serving bubble, they are set up to work for the community. And it shows! Scott Keogh’s vision in setting this forum up years ago should be applauded.

 

[R1TVT]

in the spirit of healthy debates, I would also envision some degree of safety and passenger protection when the battery SOC is critically low.

Along those lines, I'm thinking if you reached a critically low point, you would likely be required to charge the battery (either plugged-in, or via the RE) to a SAFE level, where you would not be endangering yourself, your passengers or other motorists by being speed-limited (and trying to merge onto a HWY for example).

 

[Bodie]

People are having such a hard time with the RE concept, but understand that the RE will NOT INCREASE power suddenly to the vehicle when the RE is running, as it is in no way shape or form connected to the drive train, NOR will it change the output of the large battery pack turning the electric motors... It will ONLY work to affect the SOC of the battery and the rate at which electrons are depleted while the vehicle is in motion

I'll bet that Scout Motors very intentionally called this a "RANGE EXTENDER" for a very specific reason:

The reason is that your RANGE WILL BE LIMITED (like in any other EV), and that it will not suddenly break the laws of thermodynamics. The Scout will just be LESS LIMITED with the RANGE EXTENDER.

A small gas motor (range extender) will generate electricity, then that electricity will be converted into BATTERY POWER. A small gas motor will allow for electrons to flow into the battery pack - this is happening while electrons are leaving battery pack (as the truck is running). The amount of electrons moving into the battery pack ARE NOT always equivalent to the electrons being disbursed to the electric motors turning the wheels and LEAVING THE BATTERY PACK.

The notion of "turtle mode"or "safe mode" happens when a battery becomes critically low. I can drive my R1T just as fast and hard at 10% SOC as I can at 100% SOC... Of course there will be SW in place to protect the battery and systems as SOC drops below a certain critically low level (details to be forthcoming from Scout Motors). Hope that helps.

We don’t know how the harvester will work but it is certainly possible for the generator to provide extra power because the vehicle could use full battery power + full generator power. It sure won’t go 500 miles like this but it’s a possibility. It doesn’t have to only charge the battery.

 

[R1TVT]

Are you saying that the RE will therefore be connected directly to a drive shaft to provide this theoretical "extra power" ?

The reason that is ask this is because there is no reason (at least that I see) to "rate de-limit" a fully-charged battery pack turning an electric motor when the RE is NOT running...

If there is no direct connection between the RE and the drive shaft, and based on your premise, the battery would somehow output more energy to the wheels with the RE running (as opposed to adding electrons to the battery pack and simply operating as any other EV battery pack would).

There are trucks that operate (in the inverse) to boost gas power with electric (like a Tundra Hybrid), but in that case the electric motor is used between a full sized ICE engine and the existing drive train to enhance performance generated by the ICE engine in specific areas of the power band, where the ICE engine will be at its weakest.

This is not the type of system described by Scout (in the inverse) where the RE will boost the output and impact the power band from the battery to the electric motor.

 

[Bodie]

Generator makes electricity. Battery gives electricity. Add the 2 together for more electricity than either can supply independently. No mechanical connection to drive line required.

 

[Chaparral]

We don’t know how the harvester will work but it is certainly possible for the generator to provide extra power because the vehicle could use full battery power + full generator power. It sure won’t go 500 miles like this but it’s a possibility. It doesn’t have to only charge the battery.

The battery and motors can already deliver the power to go 0-60 very fast. I can’t think of a scenario where we’d need to have the Harvester output on top of what’s already there.

If Scout did have a launch mode like Tesla and Rivian it should have a physical button to activate it and that button should probably have a safety cover that you have to flip open to get to it. I think it’s so silly when I see a Rivian on a drag strip and the driver is messing around with a touchscreen. But rather than building for drag racing they need to focus on stuff that’s actually useful.

 

[R1TVT]

True, you are creating more energy, but you must convert the energy that is created AND store it in the battery, prior to discharging it to the motors. You will have a finite limit to the cells in a battery pack, and you will have a BMS system to manage power conversion (and disbursement) and well as heat and other environmental considerations for battery health.

Think of it this way... I can slowly charge my battery on a Level 2 charger, or I can really blast a charge into the battery pack on a Supercharger. The output of the battery pack is still the same, as the energy still must be converted and managed by the onboard BMS. The power output is identical regardless of fast or slow charging, so 2+2 does not equal more power output in your example, but WILL allow for more electrons to add to the SOC.

 

[Peter Hamilton]

People should be thinking about generator engines. Like a Westinghouse 10kw generator that runs for ten hours on 5 gallons of fuel and would yield ~100kwh(probably less than that ends up in the battery). So if your battery were to last say 6 hours cruising and you switched on the range extender it could add another 50kwh to your battery and maybe add another 2 hours to drive time. This would give you time to add another 20kwh of juice and extend you another hour and so on and so forth.

I think it would be great if the RE were removable so I didn't need to carry it around town and I could reclaim the cargo space and lose the weight. I think it would be awesome for camping, letting you run things and charge the battery at the campsite. A couple jerry cans of fuel and you triple the RE output over a weekend.

The tesla range extender renders I have seen(probably fan generated) are about the size of spare tire and mounts in the pickup bed. It seems to have similar specs as the Harvester Scout is proposing.

 

[Logan]

The generator won’t do anything to add performance. That’s all the electric motors. The generator just adds charge to the battery and it doesn’t matter if the battery is at 100% charge or 10% the electric motors will perform the same.

The generator is just going to slow down the rate the battery loses charge to extend the range. It’s not turning a drivetrain so it only needs the torque needed to turn an alternator.

VW have 1.0 liter 3 cylinder engines, but the Harvester might be even smaller, maybe even something from Ducati. It needs to sit below the rear cargo area without taking too much cargo space away, as shown in the reveal video.

Yeah, the engine shouldn't add any performance, other than in the event that the battery is at too low of charge.

Not yet.

We will discuss the range extender more extensively as development continues, and we are ready to give more definitive answers. I have lots of my own questions as well.

Our goal is to share as much as we can with all of you on this road to production. I personally think the range extender and the engineering and tech behind it will be really interesting, especially in all the use cases.

Meanwhile some healthy debate is good. Keep the feedback coming and let's avoid slinging too many arrows if we can.

Jamie

Jamie-

Thanks for this.

I’ve said most of this in other threads here, but wanted to mention it here too since you said this.

What I had in mind (my expectation) when I reserved a Traveler Harvester was simply a gas generator that could provide enough power to the battery to continue to drive the vehicle indefinitely on the highway like a normal gas/hybrid/phev (and much like the Ramcharger promises to do).

Channeling the friends/family who I’ve spoken with about this vehicle, most seem to share this expectation.

I understand my expectation might have been incorrect. But I do believe that with all the marketing/perception/history of scout in making a “real” trucks and SUVs”, there will be some level of customer disappointment if at a minimum the generator can’t keep the vehicle at a desired state of charge moving with traffic on the freeway while unladen. Meaning if you have to drop into “limp mode” while heading up a pass (or worse, on flat level ground) I think that would cause some concerns.

I do also happen to think many people reserving the harvester are interested in it because of towing (I’m not, but others, yes). And if the range with the harvester while towing is less than or equal to the largest battery packs effective towing range, that will also cause some comment/concern (we know the battery will be smaller with the harvester) and would be a miss in my eyes.

So in your design discussions, I just hope that you discuss/represent this desire to the engineering teams. I understand the limitations of the EREV design. I understand the limitations you have with packaging (especially with the spare tire), and I know it will be difficult, but wanted to make my hopes/initial expectations were known .

And as I’ve said this a few other times, people have suggested that I buy a normal combustion vehicle if the desire is to be able to drive on the highway that long at a time between charges. But, I really do want an EV. The 150mile range means 90-99% of my trips will be all electric. But as I’m driving through rural WA/OR/ID/UT on road trips for the next decade, I have a lot higher confidence that I’ll find gas, than reliable chargers.

Thanks for your time Jamie .

Personally I’m really curious to see how the Ramcharger does in testing. And also I hear rumors that the new Hyundai Ioniq 9 will offer an EREV. So curious to see how they are implemented and if they can highway cruise. Because I think as those are both coming out before the scout, that it will set a bit of customer expectations in this area.

 

[dearbulls]

We don’t know how the harvester will work but it is certainly possible for the generator to provide extra power because the vehicle could use full battery power + full generator power. It sure won’t go 500 miles like this but it’s a possibility. It doesn’t have to only charge the battery.

Like that boost button on Ioniq 5N?

 

[dearbulls]

Are you saying that the RE will therefore be connected directly to a drive shaft to provide this theoretical "extra power" ?

The reason that is ask this is because there is no reason (at least that I see) to "rate de-limit" a fully-charged battery pack turning an electric motor when the RE is NOT running...

If there is no direct connection between the RE and the drive shaft, and based on your premise, the battery would somehow output more energy to the wheels with the RE running (as opposed to adding electrons to the battery pack and simply operating as any other EV battery pack would).

There are trucks that operate (in the inverse) to boost gas power with electric (like a Tundra Hybrid), but in that case the electric motor is used between a full sized ICE engine and the existing drive train to enhance performance generated by the ICE engine in specific areas of the power band, where the ICE engine will be at its weakest.

This is not the type of system described by Scout (in the inverse) where the RE will boost the output and impact the power band from the battery to the electric motor.

I kinda get it. Basically he was saying other than charging battery, to have separate bypass cable to drive electric motors directly from the power that RE generated. But I assume that will significantly complex the design. I'm not an engineer but just a thought

 

[dearbulls]

People should be thinking about generator engines. Like a Westinghouse 10kw generator that runs for ten hours on 5 gallons of fuel and would yield ~100kwh(probably less than that ends up in the battery). So if your battery were to last say 6 hours cruising and you switched on the range extender it could add another 50kwh to your battery and maybe add another 2 hours to drive time. This would give you time to add another 20kwh of juice and extend you another hour and so on and so forth.

I think it would be great if the RE were removable so I didn't need to carry it around town and I could reclaim the cargo space and lose the weight. I think it would be awesome for camping, letting you run things and charge the battery at the campsite. A couple jerry cans of fuel and you triple the RE output over a weekend.

The tesla range extender renders I have seen(probably fan generated) are about the size of spare tire and mounts in the pickup bed. It seems to have similar specs as the Harvester Scout is proposing.

10kw is usually running power for house generator and it's way less than needed for EV, and size is too big

 

[dearbulls]

People should be thinking about generator engines. Like a Westinghouse 10kw generator that runs for ten hours on 5 gallons of fuel and would yield ~100kwh(probably less than that ends up in the battery). So if your battery were to last say 6 hours cruising and you switched on the range extender it could add another 50kwh to your battery and maybe add another 2 hours to drive time. This would give you time to add another 20kwh of juice and extend you another hour and so on and so forth.

I think it would be great if the RE were removable so I didn't need to carry it around town and I could reclaim the cargo space and lose the weight. I think it would be awesome for camping, letting you run things and charge the battery at the campsite. A couple jerry cans of fuel and you triple the RE output over a weekend.

The tesla range extender renders I have seen(probably fan generated) are about the size of spare tire and mounts in the pickup bed. It seems to have similar specs as the Harvester Scout is proposing.

Tesla? Did you mean CT? It's not range extender, it's just an extra battery pack in bed

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Tesla? Did you mean CT? It's not range extender, it's just an extra battery pack in bed

I think they are changing that...

 

[Peter Hamilton]

10kw is usually running power for house generator and it's way less than needed for EV, and size is too big

Thats the point, it doesn't need to power the EV. It needs to supply a charge to battery. Like adding a trickle of water to a bucket of water with a hole in it. It will take longer drain but eventually it will drain.

 

[dearbulls]

Not yet.

We will discuss the range extender more extensively as development continues, and we are ready to give more definitive answers. I have lots of my own questions as well.

Our goal is to share as much as we can with all of you on this road to production. I personally think the range extender and the engineering and tech behind it will be really interesting, especially in all the use cases.

Meanwhile some healthy debate is good. Keep the feedback coming and let's avoid slinging too many arrows if we can.

Jamie

Thank you Jamie.

1 thing I think that's important but many EV companies haven't figured out is how to smoothly deliver large torque for off-road.

Electric motor, by nature, delivers max torque as speed 0 rpm. So other than trying to increase the torque at slow speed like in ICE vehicles, the challenge on EV is how to deliver reduced yet enough power. You don't want the wheel to spin crazy at climbing, but you don't want the power to decrease as speed goes up a little. And cooling is also important for low speed crawling.

Living in the SE US, what attracts me the most about this is capability to evacuate in case of natural disaster such as hurricane. Especially when the salt water came in. We've seen news of Tesla catching fire in garage sitting in water.

Another reason I like the idea of REEV is winter. Heating uses a lot of energy on BEV, way more than most non-EV owners would imagine. However, heat is just a byproduct of ICE. So you can use the ICE to warm up the cabin, motors, and batteries. Which will give us significant reduce in energy usage and extend the range in winter. For example, driving from Savannah GA to Jacksonville FL is about 180-200 miles. With my ID4 rated at 240 mi, I can drive past the city to charge in summer time, driving at 80 mph. In winter tho, I had to slow down to 77 or even 75mph, turn down the heating and barely made it to the same EA charger. That nervous is significant. So I applaud for you guys using NACS and possibly Tesla networks as well

 

[dearbulls]

Thats the point, it doesn't need to power the EV. It needs to supply a charge to battery. Like adding a trickle of water to a bucket of water with a hole in it. It will take longer drain but eventually it will drain.

I doubt 10kw is enough to trickle a 20% or less battery, unless you want the engine run all the time which defy the purpose of EV: a clean and quiet ride.