Should Scout adopt the NACS (Tesla) charging system

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JohnBills

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Apr 21, 2023
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Ford recently announced that their EVs will start using the Tesla charging system (recently made open and renamed the North American Charging Standard) in 2025. With Ford changing to the Tesla plug, do you think other North American manufacturers should follow suit? I've charged with both NACS and CCS and, in my opinion, Tesla is winning in this arena. The plug has a much smaller form factor and is more durable (what Scout owner doesn't want durability?). It's also a much simpler user experience and is proving more reliable than CCS networks so far. I know VW owns both Scout and Electrify America, which is a CCS network, but NACS just seems like the better system. I feel like Scout owners will be happier in the long run. There will be some pain on the manufacturers' and networks' end but I feel like the EV-going American will be happier in the end and more loyal to the brands that prioritize the owner experience. What do you all think? Ford Just Made a Brilliant, Blindingly Obvious Move by Embracing Tesla Charging (motortrend.com)
NACS-Blog-Image-02
 
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Rivian now on the NACS bandwagon.
Starting to feel like the writing is on the wall for what the winner will be.
 
As enlightening as all the posts here are, it reminds me of the earliest days of the automobile around the turn of the 19th-20th centuries. Everyone had their own ideas and it took some 40 years to sort it all out with some semblance of standards. Are we going to take another 40 years to settle whose charger nozzle is best? I don't think we have the time. If the federal government can specify the size of the filler tube opening and the size of the pump's nozzle, they can surely specify a charger plug standard. Sure, have a commission to study it, but give them no more than 6 months to listen to all the player's needs and make a choice. But it might just be wise to note that Europe has already done the deed, and the manufacturers (most are selling internationally anyway) know how to match that requirement, let's just shortcut the game and accept the European standard. (I have a hunch they are pretty smart folks over there that made the choice.)
 
<QUOTE>either way this brings up a further discussion about regulation. in the EU the government mandated that all EVs will use the CCS2 plug and tesla made it so. the problem that the US is now facing is Tesla VS CCS...this is only going to fracture the infrastructure further and the longer we have two standards the harder it will be to combine them in the future. the north american market really needs to have one charging standard whether it is tesla or CCS...honestly it doesn't matter but the bigger issue is fracturing this and making EV owners have to carry extra adapters to accomidate the different companies instead of companies getting on the same page.<END QUOTE>

AMEN!!! I don't like bringing government and the hard hand of regulation into this, but the EU leads the way. North America needs a single standard, adapters can be made or parts can be swapped for those who don't fit. Rather than a Congressional Commission studying this (while soliciting lobbyist's dollars) it is time for Underwriters Laboratories (both UL and cUL and maybe include IEC) to set a standard for model year 25 and beyond. Today's marketplace is truly worldwide.
 
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I'll pile on to Rustic_father's early post. Absolutely have the Tesla plug and have the computer be able to seemlessly communicate with the supercharger. Because this is a Scout, and we want to be able to have the most options, please do include both plugs and make the computer able to easily work with CCS chargers as well. This means that Scout owners will have the best overall charging experience and will have less range anxiety.

Overall, I think Tesla is winning here and would be happy with just their interface if I had to pick.
 
Haven't paid attention to this since the initial wave of announcements, but I recently watched this video which I thought was very informative:


It's Alex on Auto's deep dive into NACS, released Aug 22. As I recall, he's an engineer and his videos tend to be more information-based than "gee when I press the pedal this car goes really fast" type.

A few things I learned:
- The actual standard automakers are adopting is SAE J 2400 NAX, which will be better defined than NACS to increase the chance of interoperability.
- NAX/NACS uses CCS signaling even though it uses the Tesla connector.
- Only version 3 superchargers or better support CCS signaling.
- Recent Teslas support both CCS signaling and their original CHAdeMO-based proprietary signaling, which is required to use the entire Supercharger network.
- Carmakers will only support CCS signaling, which means that even if Tesla does allow access to their network (and doesn't revoke it on a whim), they still won't work on a big part of it.

So, does this actually provide any benefit? I think any minor benefit (smaller connector) will be overshadowed be the decade or more of chaos that is going to ensue. When you get your NACS car, you will always need an adapter to plug into the network you can always use (EA/etc) and no adapter to plug into the network that you may-or-may-not be able to use (Tesla). If they just stayed the course there would have been no change in capability, but it would have been much more clear to the consumer. EA/etc = no adapter. Supercharger network = adapter or use their latest v4 stuff which has the adapter built-in.

The way I see it, the big wins for Tesla here are:
1) Sowing major confusion in the enemy camp for years to come (both manufacturers and especially consumers),
2) Setting up consumers to be even more disappointed with the charging of non-teslas (if you thought the bulky CCS connector was bad, what about the NACS/CCS-adapter combination that everyone will now be using? And being sold on the supercharger network and not really getting it),
3) Lower their cost to get federal money for build-out of their network, as they no longer need to support the CCS connector.
4) Increase the costs to EA/etc as they will now need to provide both types of connectors moving forward.
5) Possible slight increase in cost to make non-teslas as the tesla connector has more complicated hardware on the car side.

Unfortunately, it looks like that ship has sailed and things will be getting more confusing and more of a hassle for non-tesla buyers.
 
At this point if Scout DOESN'T go with NACS I will have serious reservations about buying one. NACS has been determined by the industry as being THE charging standard going forward so Scout would do well to adopt it before launching its first vehicles.

VW is notable for being one of the few automakers yet to adopt NACS so I have concerns about Scout adopting it. Hopefully the people at Scout will ease those concerns with an announcement soon about adopting the standard.
 
I've said it before in perhaps another thread. Now that the USA has had time to experience and evaluate the several charger styles, it is time for there to be a nation-wide (better = continental) mandate established by some independent testing agency. I'm thinking it might best be done by SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) or similar, then incorporated into the FMVSS. I see this as essentially the same as the current mandate on gas pump nozzle diameter, and the current system's idiocy of having to search for a charger with the right plug to fil.
 
Here is the article with the anser but below is the TLDR:

ford will provide an adapter for the next few years while they are still producing the CCS socket, This adapter will allow ford vehicles to communicate with the Super charger network to gain access. Ford will be making all vehicles in the future with the tesla plug so no longer needing the adapter.

EDIT: With this precedence now being set i would really like it if Scout could negotiate access to super chargers via an adapter. I am still not convinced that switching to the tesla plug is the best move at the moment but if there is access to the super charger network though an adapter that would open up so much and allow the scout to be charged anywhere!...either that or switch to the tesla plug with an included CCS adapter....

either way this brings up a further discussion about regulation. in the EU the government mandated that all EVs will use the CCS2 plug and tesla made it so. the problem that the US is now facing is Tesla VS CCS...this is only going to fracture the infrastructure further and the longer we have two standards the harder it will be to combine them in the future. the north american market really needs to have one charging standard whether it is tesla or CCS...honestly it doesn't matter but the bigger issue is fracturing this and making EV owners have to carry extra adapters to accomidate the different companies instead of companies getting on the same page.
Yes, one standard is necessary. Just imagine if you had to search the gas stations to find the one that had nozzles which fit your make of car. There would be riots in the streets. (/s) Someone in government or industry solved that issue long ago, the same someone should look to SAE to make a choice and mandate it just like the EU did.
 
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I've said it before in perhaps another thread. Now that the USA has had time to experience and evaluate the several charger styles, it is time for there to be a nation-wide (better = continental) mandate established by some independent testing agency. I'm thinking it might best be done by SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) or similar, then incorporated into the FMVSS. I see this as essentially the same as the current mandate on gas pump nozzle diameter, and the current system's idiocy of having to search for a charger with the right plug to fil.
There HAS been an SAE connector standard for over a decade now, it's called J1772/CCS Type 1 and all electric vehicles except Tesla (and the anicent Nissan Leaf) have been using it as THE charging connector. Unfortunately Tesla stubbornly refused to adopt it because of weak regulations in the United States (the EU in contrast forced Tesla to adopt the related Type 2 standard in Europe many years ago). The connector design for J1772/CCS Type 1 is admittedly clunky whereas the Tesla connector (now known as NACS) is a lot more elegant. Both form factors (J1772/CCS & NACS) however use the same exact communication protocols so it's really only a form factor discussion at this point - litterally just differently shaped plugs.

Lacking any regulatory guidance the industry has now chosen to go with the more elegantly-designed NACS connector shape which is good. Had they not all suddenly all decided to switch to NACS this year Tesla would have likely eventually had to move over to J1772/CCS Type 1 in North America just as they had to standardize around the European Type 2 connector over there. Up until this spring that's exactly what it looked like Tesla was starting to do. That's all moot now, the industry has chosen NACS and Scout would be well advised to join that movement.
 
There HAS been an SAE connector standard for over a decade now, it's called J1772/CCS Type 1 and all electric vehicles except Tesla (and the anicent Nissan Leaf) have been using it as THE charging connector. Unfortunately Tesla stubbornly refused to adopt it because of weak regulations in the United States (the EU in contrast forced Tesla to adopt the related Type 2 standard in Europe many years ago). The connector design for J1772/CCS Type 1 is admittedly clunky whereas the Tesla connector (now known as NACS) is a lot more elegant. Both form factors (J1772/CCS & NACS) however use the same exact communication protocols so it's really only a form factor discussion at this point - litterally just differently shaped plugs.

Lacking any regulatory guidance the industry has now chosen to go with the more elegantly-designed NACS connector shape which is good. Had they not all suddenly all decided to switch to NACS this year Tesla would have likely eventually had to move over to J1772/CCS Type 1 in North America just as they had to standardize around the European Type 2 connector over there. Up until this spring that's exactly what it looked like Tesla was starting to do. That's all moot now, the industry has chosen NACS and Scout would be well advised to join that movement.
All of this is true. But, after lots of experience with both the NACS and J1772, the NACS is a better design. It’s simpler. It’s easer to plug in especially in the dark. It’s less prone to water intrusion and corrosion. It doesn’t have to flimsy release lever. Etc etc.
 
It's more than just a form-factor debate. CCS is an actual industry standard and has passed several hurdles to become one. CCS also supports bi-directional charging (like vehicle to grid for example) - something the Tesla connector does not. I refuse the call the Tesla connector NACS because it's a proprietary connector used by four cars. Tesla wants us all to call it NACS to make it seem like a foregone conclusion but it's not. Every non-Tesla EV on sale supports CCS (except the Leaf).

Being able to take power from a vehicle is a very important feature that should not be overlooked. CCS supports that today, Tesla connector does not. Sure maybe in the future the Tesla design could support it but currently CCS is superior in all but design (it's definitely less elegant). CCS supports higher speeds, liquid cooling, and V2X.

Like others have said, it'll be interesting to see what happens in the industry but for now my money is on CCS.
From my understanding of electronics its not the conector that dictate bi-directional charging but the capability of the circuity on each side....

per several articles like this one it appears that Tesla's connector is on its way of becoming a industry standard
https://cleantechnica.com/2023/08/19/tesla-plans-to-adopt-bi-directional-charging-by-2025/

the current carrying capability of Tesla's connector current capability exceeds 60amps ample for most EV and given the existing Tesla Charging network being the largest out there and expanding daily ... I think it's wise choice
 
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From my understanding of electronics its not the conector that dictate bi-directional charging but the capability of the circuity on each side....

per several articles like this one it appears that Tesla's connector is on its way of becoming a industry standard
https://cleantechnica.com/2023/08/19/tesla-plans-to-adopt-bi-directional-charging-by-2025/

the current carrying capability of Tesla's connector current capability exceeds 60amps ample for most EV and given the existing Tesla Charging network being the largest out there and expanding daily ... I think it's wise choice
Yes you are correct. At the moment the NACS connector does not support bi-directional charging but yes support should be coming soon.

Things (including my own views!) have changed significantly since I wrote that post!