Please, No Free Fast Charging Credits

[MountainDad]

I’m new to EV’s and charging them & trying to learn

Almost monthly we make a 160 mile drive, then 20 ish city miles and then around 160 miles more coming home & traffic can be a pain. My problem is I don’t want to sit at a charging station for hours, that’s for the birds….

So on my Polestar, I have the option to adjust the max state of charge dynamically. Batteries wear out, but if you only charge them to 80 or 90% regularly, you'll get more life out of them. I charge at home almost exclusively - I've used a fast charger maybe twice, just to ensure I know how.

When you need to, you can bump your SoC up to 100% before you leave home, and then the strategy is to charge on the road only up to 80%.

The last 10-20% of charge from 80-100% is what takes the longest, because of a feature of rechargeable batteries called "the stadium effect". When the battery or stadium is empty, you (and electrons) can get to your seat fairly quickly. Electrons though just pick the first "seat" in the battery that's open. As the "stadium" fills up, charging slows down because the electrons have to find empty seats. That also causes heat to build up, and that's what ends up shortening the battery's life.

So anyway, if you're not going for the Harvester option, then when you have those long trips, charge up to 100% at the beginning of the trip, and then stop just outside where things get crappy, and charge up to 80% or whatever you need to get home with margin. Fast charging up to 80% from like 30 or 40% will take about as much time as you'd need to visit the restroom and maybe grab a snack or something.

The drawback is when chargers are broken, which happens way too much IMO, or when jerks leave their Tesla's plugged in after they're full and there are no open stations. But, there are apps for all that.

 

[J Alynn]

So on my Polestar, I have the option to adjust the max state of charge dynamically. Batteries wear out, but if you only charge them to 80 or 90% regularly, you'll get more life out of them. I charge at home almost exclusively - I've used a fast charger maybe twice, just to ensure I know how.

When you need to, you can bump your SoC up to 100% before you leave home, and then the strategy is to charge on the road only up to 80%.

The last 10-20% of charge from 80-100% is what takes the longest, because of a feature of rechargeable batteries called "the stadium effect". When the battery or stadium is empty, you (and electrons) can get to your seat fairly quickly. Electrons though just pick the first "seat" in the battery that's open. As the "stadium" fills up, charging slows down because the electrons have to find empty seats. That also causes heat to build up, and that's what ends up shortening the battery's life.

So anyway, if you're not going for the Harvester option, then when you have those long trips, charge up to 100% at the beginning of the trip, and then stop just outside where things get crappy, and charge up to 80% or whatever you need to get home with margin. Fast charging up to 80% from like 30 or 40% will take about as much time as you'd need to visit the restroom and maybe grab a snack or something.

The drawback is when chargers are broken, which happens way too much IMO, or when jerks leave their Tesla's plugged in after they're full and there are no open stations. But, there are apps for all that.

That is the best description I have ever heard. Great analogy. Seriously-SM should use this in their marketing to new to EV people like me. I never understood the 80% thing until reading this.
GOLD STAR!!!

 

[LastDayScout]

So on my Polestar, I have the option to adjust the max state of charge dynamically. Batteries wear out, but if you only charge them to 80 or 90% regularly, you'll get more life out of them. I charge at home almost exclusively - I've used a fast charger maybe twice, just to ensure I know how.

When you need to, you can bump your SoC up to 100% before you leave home, and then the strategy is to charge on the road only up to 80%.

The last 10-20% of charge from 80-100% is what takes the longest, because of a feature of rechargeable batteries called "the stadium effect". When the battery or stadium is empty, you (and electrons) can get to your seat fairly quickly. Electrons though just pick the first "seat" in the battery that's open. As the "stadium" fills up, charging slows down because the electrons have to find empty seats. That also causes heat to build up, and that's what ends up shortening the battery's life.

So anyway, if you're not going for the Harvester option, then when you have those long trips, charge up to 100% at the beginning of the trip, and then stop just outside where things get crappy, and charge up to 80% or whatever you need to get home with margin. Fast charging up to 80% from like 30 or 40% will take about as much time as you'd need to visit the restroom and maybe grab a snack or something.

The drawback is when chargers are broken, which happens way too much IMO, or when jerks leave their Tesla's plugged in after they're full and there are no open stations. But, there are apps for all that.

This is all spot on!

 

[Rampy]

Are there and level two chargers in the city where you go? There probably are. Otherwise you will have to make one charge stop. Based on the hardware Scout is using your stop time will be in the 10s of minutes, not hours. Or, get the Harvester package and don’t worry about it.

No idea, I would assume any city has chargers have never paid attention before.

I’m assuming once again you can get an app that shows locations of chargers

Traveler Harvester is what I’ve reserved

 

[Albal]

It does seem that there are greenhorns / new EV owners at DCFC locations that want to charge to 100% from time to time... You don't always know why, and while it is their right to do so, they often times don't realize that charging to 100% is something that SHOULD rarely occur, simply based on charging curves and the slower charge times to hit 100%. In most cases, it's usually best to charge up to 80% then un-plug and be on your way. There have been rare occasions where I have charged beyond 80% at a DCFC, however that was usually driven by going to a destination that required additional juice to reach the destination, or needing enough juice to get back to that same DCFC in cold temps on my return. The only time I really charge to 100% is on my home charger when preparing for a longer road-trip.

When at home and for daily usage, I never charge beyond 70%... That is still providing you with a SHIT TON of range based on ~300 miles at 100%. So for me, "waking up with a full tank" is the equivalent of sitting at 70% SOC.

It’d be good if the infotainment system had some educational alerts as well. Like if you’re charging above 80% something dings and pops up that lets them they’re actually slowing themselves down. Could have a more info button leading to a full explanation. And of course a don’t show this again option…or maybe not!

 

[MountainDad]

That is the best description I have ever heard. Great analogy. Seriously-SM should use this in their marketing to new to EV people like me. I never understood the 80% thing until reading this.
GOLD STAR!!!

Hat tip to Car and Driver!

 

[Rampy]

So on my Polestar, I have the option to adjust the max state of charge dynamically. Batteries wear out, but if you only charge them to 80 or 90% regularly, you'll get more life out of them. I charge at home almost exclusively - I've used a fast charger maybe twice, just to ensure I know how.

When you need to, you can bump your SoC up to 100% before you leave home, and then the strategy is to charge on the road only up to 80%.

The last 10-20% of charge from 80-100% is what takes the longest, because of a feature of rechargeable batteries called "the stadium effect". When the battery or stadium is empty, you (and electrons) can get to your seat fairly quickly. Electrons though just pick the first "seat" in the battery that's open. As the "stadium" fills up, charging slows down because the electrons have to find empty seats. That also causes heat to build up, and that's what ends up shortening the battery's life.

So anyway, if you're not going for the Harvester option, then when you have those long trips, charge up to 100% at the beginning of the trip, and then stop just outside where things get crappy, and charge up to 80% or whatever you need to get home with margin. Fast charging up to 80% from like 30 or 40% will take about as much time as you'd need to visit the restroom and maybe grab a snack or something.

The drawback is when chargers are broken, which happens way too much IMO, or when jerks leave their Tesla's plugged in after they're full and there are no open stations. But, there are apps for all that.

Thanks for the explanation, puts it better into perspective. I’ve never looked into charging stations other than laughing at the guys on road trips who pull out beach chairs, umbrellas & coolers while charging

The new Buc-ces in Colorado has a long line of chargers, a simple 15 min charge while getting munchies sounds quite feasible

 

[MountainDad]

Thanks for the explanation, puts it better into perspective. I’ve never looked into charging stations other than laughing at the guys on road trips who pull out beach chairs, umbrellas & coolers while charging

The new Buc-ces in Colorado has a long line of chargers, a simple 15 min charge while getting munchies sounds quite feasible

I have a diesel Land Rover for my road trip vehicle and current off-roader. Its range is waaaaaayy longer than my bladder capacity.

 

[Rampy]

I have a diesel Land Rover for my road trip vehicle and current off-roader. Its range is waaaaaayy longer than my bladder capacity.

Not a fan of current diesels, to much of a pain in rear end

Put a 58gal tank in the F250 & now I need lots of potty stops

 

[LastDayScout]

No idea, I would assume any city has chargers have never paid attention before.

I’m assuming once again you can get an app that shows locations of chargers

Traveler Harvester is what I’ve reserved

Yes, the navigation will show it along with CarPlay, android. In addition I suggest downloading PlugShare and playing around with it. Modern EVs make it difficult to run out of charge. They will let you know.

 

[Rampy]

Yes, the navigation will show it along with CarPlay, android. In addition I suggest downloading PlugShare and playing around with it. Modern EVs make it difficult to run out of charge. They will let you know.

I’ve seen 2 Tesla’s on flatbed’s at a charging station in Sheridan Wyoming that ran out of juice and another one in Kycee who was scared he would not make it to a charger. The flatbed driver told me they get several every year that run out of juice coming from Yellowstone

This is what makes me leery of the EV, long distances & no chargers & why the Harvester makes me smile

 

[R1TVT]

It’d be good if the infotainment system had some educational alerts as well. Like if you’re charging above 80% something dings and pops up that lets them they’re actually slowing themselves down. Could have a more info button leading to a full explanation. And of course a don’t show this again option…or maybe not!

This is all standard both in the car and in the car's app, as well as inside any app you might use at a DCFC station (for example)... The Scout will heave these features standard.

The modern SW for charging and setting preferences is "built-in" to the charging screens on the main infotainment screen - you can set your "DAILY CHARGING LIMIT" to 70% and forget it.

When going on a road trip, you may want to charge up to 100% at home, so you can do that either on the screen of the truck when you plug-in, or you can toggle up to 100% from inside the app. It is safe to assume that Scout Motors will include all of these basic amenities out of the gate. They are tablestakes in any modern EV. Also, if you are charging at an EA or EvGo, or Chargepoint station (for example), the app for charging will allow you to set notifications based on SOC... One important alert allows you to get notified by the app if you leave your vehicle and it is done with the charging session. You don't want to be "that guy" bc you will be taking a spot away from someone else that could potentially be waiting for a charge if the station is busy. This can and will happen from time to time. On a road trip it usually only makes sense to charge to 80% since your charging curve will begin to slow after hitting 80%. You are just wasting time charging all the way to 100% at a DCFC. Sometimes you have not choice and you need to do it to hit your destination, but most of the time, you should just move on after hitting 80% for most vehicles. The app will send you a notification when the SOC reaches 80% (in case you leave your car and grab some food).

You will be hit with "IDLE FEES" if you hog a station and leave yourself plugged-in at a DCFC. If you are at a Level II charger (say at a hotel overnight) that is not the case and that is usually fine. You should always be aware of the way the station is set-up and charges for usage and idle time. A station might also charge based on time to charge instead of by kWh - they can vary. Hope that helps!

 

[eherlihy]

I'm new to EV's (never owned or driven one) but if I understand correctly:

• You want to charge UP TO 80% on a regular basis - I love the stadium seating analogy!
• You don't ever want to get below 10%, because this can also damage the battery

Thus, you should really only PLAN on using 70% of the stated maximum EV range. In Scout's case, that would be 70% of 350 miles, or 245 miles of typical (daily) range.

This could work for me, as when I drive my current vehicle between my home and work - 45 to 50 miles each way depending upon the rout that I take - I refill the tank every other trip (~every 200 miles).

My concern is when I make my semi-annual trip between Massachusetts and Florida - ~1600 miles each way. I usually do this over three 500-plus-mile-days of driving. I fill my tank before I stop for the night, and once during the daily drive at lunch. My truck will do ~420 miles on a tank. Yes, I make a 15-20 minute stop for lunch each day, but that is it. I'm not quite sure how the planning for this would work.

 

[prattm1964]

It does seem that there are greenhorns / new EV owners at DCFC locations that want to charge to 100% from time to time... You don't always know why, and while it is their right to do so, they often times don't realize that charging to 100% is something that SHOULD rarely occur, simply based on charging curves and the slower charge times to hit 100%. In most cases, it's usually best to charge up to 80% then un-plug and be on your way. There have been rare occasions where I have charged beyond 80% at a DCFC, however that was usually driven by going to a destination that required additional juice to reach the destination, or needing enough juice to get back to that same DCFC in cold temps on my return. The only time I really charge to 100% is on my home charger when preparing for a longer road-trip.

When at home and for daily usage, I never charge beyond 70%... That is still providing you with a SHIT TON of range based on ~300 miles at 100%. So for me, "waking up with a full tank" is the equivalent of sitting at 70% SOC.

That's like having a 30 gallon fuel tank only being able to put 24 gallons in because the vehicle is not set up for it.
Why pay for a certain size battery, to not be able to get the full use out of it?

Yes I know, what I'm talking about doing is so BAD for the battery. Why are we tolerating this? The battery tech people need to work on this, and have chargers that are up and running, otherwise EV will die a lonely death.

 

[nolen]

That's like having a 30 gallon fuel tank only being able to put 24 gallons in because the vehicle is not set up for it.
Why pay for a certain size battery, to not be able to get the full use out of it?

Yes I know, what I'm talking about doing is so BAD for the battery. Why are we tolerating this? The battery tech people need to work on this, and have chargers that are up and running, otherwise EV will die a lonely death.

My dad always said I should never run the tank down to less than a quarter full because that’s where the impurities hang out and it can get into the engine if you do. Probably not so true anymore but still a habit he and I have

 

[eherlihy]

My dad always said I should never run the tank down to less than a quarter full because that’s where the impurities hang out and it can get into the engine if you do. Probably not so true anymore but still a habit he and I have

The electric fuel pump is submerged in the bottom of the fuel tank of many cars and trucks. These pumps are designed so that the fuel in which they are submerged cools the pump. Running the tank below 1/8 means that the pump internals will run warmer than they were designed to run, and lead to premature failure of the pump.

 

[R1TVT]

I'm new to EV's (never owned or driven one) but if I understand correctly:

• You want to charge UP TO 80% on a regular basis - I love the stadium seating analogy!
• You don't ever want to get below 10%, because this can also damage the battery

Thus, you should really only PLAN on using 70% of the stated maximum EV range. In Scout's case, that would be 70% of 350 miles, or 245 miles of typical (daily) range.

I would think about this differently, as I what I was describing was how to OPTIMIZE charging while on a road trip, to create the most EFFICIENCY. If I am going on a road trip I always start with a 100% full battery when leaving my home charger. There is nothing wrong with doing it, and I would recommend it! I look to stop to make my first charge somewhere along my route when my battery will have 10-20% SOC remaining. Why? Because charging a battery is NOT a linear equation. If you want to make the most of your time and move efficiently, why wait around during the slowest part of your charging curve at the end to go from 80-100%? It just doesn't make a lot of sense. The reason I look from 10-20% to start charging is so you have a little buffer and can start charging quickly. There are tons of articles out there but is is a good read to help understand this: https://insideevs.com/features/735794/ev-peak-charging-metric/

That's like having a 30 gallon fuel tank only being able to put 24 gallons in because the vehicle is not set up for it.
Why pay for a certain size battery, to not be able to get the full use out of it?

Yes I know, what I'm talking about doing is so BAD for the battery. Why are we tolerating this? The battery tech people need to work on this, and have chargers that are up and running, otherwise EV will die a lonely death.

Again, you can run your battery down to 5% SOC and it will be fine, but charging to 100% is not the fastest way to go about traveling in an EV on a multi-leg journey. It's only BAD for the battery if you are constantly charging up to 100%, all the time. If you are constantly topping off and draining the battery, over and over again, then yes, that is not recommended for most batteries and will start to degrade your battery performance (OVER TIME)... And if you are charging to 100% every single time you stop at a DCFC, well, you are just wasting your own time, your own battery (and potentially other people's time if there is a wait for a charger).

The battery degradation is a result of long term abuse of the battery more than anything. I have 40K miles on my R1T and Zero signs of degradation, despite charging to 100% many, many times for longer duration roadtrips. I also have an 8 Year and 175,000 mile warranty on my battery!

And nobody gets great pleasure running around in an ICE vehicle trying to find gas when their gas gauge is reading "E".

 

[eherlihy]

I'm new to EV's (never owned or driven one) but if I understand correctly:

• You want to charge UP TO 80% on a regular basis - I love the stadium seating analogy!
• You don't ever want to get below 10%, because this can also damage the battery

Thus, you should really only PLAN on using 70% of the stated maximum EV range. In Scout's case, that would be 70% of 350 miles, or 245 miles of typical (daily) range.

This could work for me, as when I drive my current vehicle between my home and work - 45 to 50 miles each way depending upon the rout that I take - I refill the tank every other trip (~every 200 miles).

My concern is when I make my semi-annual trip between Massachusetts and Florida - ~1600 miles each way. I usually do this over three 500-plus-mile-days of driving. I fill my tank before I stop for the night, and once during the daily drive at lunch. My truck will do ~420 miles on a tank. Yes, I make a 15-20 minute stop for lunch each day, but that is it. I'm not quite sure how the planning for this would work.

My daily routine when I drive my Tacoma from MA to FL looks like this.

• Start with a full tank.
• Wheels on the road at 6:am. Drive for 5.5 hours ~300 miles
• Stop for lunch and fill the tank - this takes about 30 minutes total
• Drive for another 4 hours ~200 miles
• Arrive at my destination after 10 hours ~ 4:00 pm
• Find a gas station so that I can top up the tank, which takes less than 10 minutes.
• Dinner and bed by 8:00 pm so that I can do it again.

My guess is that a daily routine for the 1600 mile trip in an EV would look like this;

• Start off with 100% charge.
• Start the driving at 6:am. Drive for 5.5 hours ~300 miles
• Stop for lunch and charge
  • Are there DCF chargers along my intended route? If so, 30 minutes charging should get me >80%.
  • At a L2 charger, charge for 3 HOURS - which should bring the battery from 10% to ??? Guessing 80%.
• Drive for another 4 hours ~ 200 miles
• Arrive at my destination after 12.5 hours (assuming L2 Charger) ~ 6:30pm
• Dinner and bed by 9:00 pm
• Top up the battery overnight - so I am restricted to hotels that either have, or are near, L2 or DCF chargers.

What am I missing?

 

[R1TVT]

The only thing you are missing are actual specs, a charging curve from Scout, and how fast the DCFC experience will be by the time you get your truck. It's all a guessing game until we have actual data, and even then, rates and speeds can vary from station to station at different times.

By way of example, I present to you an excellent resource called "A Better Route Planner" (ABRP) and a sample trip from Boston to Tampa (just for reference):

.

 

[eherlihy]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I agree that the devil is in the details, which we don't currently have.

Note that I avoid I-95 from Boston to Washington (and I will NEVER cross the GW Bridge again!). I drive I-84 to Tappan-Zee to 287 to I-78 to I-81.

I am familiar with ABRP. I had a $300 deposit on a Lucid Air Pure which I walked away from after I decided that the Lucid wasn't going to work for me.