Realistic range concerns.

[Central Oregon Guy]

Last year I bought my wife a new car. It was going to be a Tesla; but we settled on a Toyota RAV4 Prime (plug in hybrid). The reason we didn’t get a full battery electric vehicle is due to the lack of charging infrastructure in Central Oregon. We often do road trips and with a battery electric vehicle would not be able to return home on the same day or continue our journey; due to a lack of charging stations. I have started to see a few new charging stations (Detroit, Oregon), but not enough yet to alleviate my range anxiety.

My primary vehicle is a Toyota 4Runner, it is rugged and reliable; but it is not electric. I use it primarily as a daily driver with weekend trips to the Wilderness for hunting trips. My last hunting trip was 120 miles one way in freezing temperatures. Depending on the availability of charging stations; I wouldn’t be able to make a return trip in a vehicle with limited range like the Polestar 2 or Nissan Leaf. Please make the Scout with a realistic range (regardless of temperature) for the people who will actually use it outside of cities.

 

[RebelliousPeasant]

I've owned and driven EVs for the past six years so can shed some light on this and hopefully calm some fears and misconceptions I'm seeing here in the comments from some non-EV owners.

Charging infrastructure is already mostly fine and getting better every day. To find chargers look at an app like PlugShare and you'll see they're pretty much everywhere. You likely don't notice them when you're out in the world and therefore may think they aren't that common but that's because they typically don't have giant signs above them that you can see from a highway like most gas stations do. EV chargers tend to be pretty low-key and unassuming because all the EVs nav systems know where they are as do the apps, they don't need giant lit signs like a gas station does.

Charging time will depend heavily on what battery architecture Scout decides to go with. I strongly recommend that Scout goes with an 800V architecture like Hyundai-Kia EVs have. It makes an enormous difference in charging time. Most EVs are based on 400V packs and can typically charge around 150-170kW. The VW ID4 for example can do 170kW which gives charging times out in the world of around half an hour to 45 mins or so. Pretty reasonable. My 800V Ioniq 5 though is a charging beast. It can really take advantage of 350 kW chargers and as a result my charge stops are typically under 20 mins, usually around 10 to 15 mins (you almost never do the full 10%-80% thing on a road trip in real life, I usually roll in with percents in the teens or twenties which shortens the charge time from the nominal 10-80% in 18 mins thing). The difference between 400V and 800V is huge.

 

[JohnBills]

I've owned and driven EVs for the past six years so can shed some light on this and hopefully calm some fears and misconceptions I'm seeing here in the comments from some non-EV owners.

Charging infrastructure is already mostly fine and getting better every day. To find chargers look at an app like PlugShare and you'll see they're pretty much everywhere. You likely don't notice them when you're out in the world and therefore may think they aren't that common but that's because they typically don't have giant signs above them that you can see from a highway like most gas stations do. EV chargers tend to be pretty low-key and unassuming because all the EVs nav systems know where they are as do the apps, they don't need giant lit signs like a gas station does.

Charging time will depend heavily on what battery architecture Scout decides to go with. I strongly recommend that Scout goes with an 800V architecture like Hyundai-Kia EVs have. It makes an enormous difference in charging time. Most EVs are based on 400V packs and can typically charge around 150-170kW. The VW ID4 for example can do 170kW which gives charging times out in the world of around half an hour to 45 mins or so. Pretty reasonable. My 800V Ioniq 5 though is a charging beast. It can really take advantage of 350 kW chargers and as a result my charge stops are typically under 20 mins, usually around 10 to 15 mins (you almost never do the full 10%-80% thing on a road trip in real life, I usually roll in with percents in the teens or twenties which shortens the charge time from the nominal 10-80% in 18 mins thing). The difference between 400V and 800V is huge.

I'll second how great 800-volt architecture is! I went from a Bolt EUV to a Genesis GV60 and the charging stops were 3x faster. Use the restroom and your car is charged! It's amazing.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Agreed with above.

Plus I think what we all forget is that electricity is everywhere already. Yes, there will be infrastructure improvements that are necessary (particularly in some specific states) but it is a lot easier to install charging stations in all sorts of locations versus the red tape and environmental hurdles/permits in building more gas stations.

 

[Harris005]

Agreed with above.

Plus I think what we all forget is that electricity is everywhere already. Yes, there will be infrastructure improvements that are necessary (particularly in some specific states) but it is a lot easier to install charging stations in all sorts of locations versus building more gas stations.

I'm surprised that restaurant chains have not cashed in on being known to have charging stations. Seems like a win win...come in and buy a meal for the traveling family and also make money on the charging station. I'm not an EV owner (projecting to be in 2026 ), but planning long trips around restaurant sit downs while the EV charges seems to be a no brainer to me.

 

[JohnBills]

I'm surprised that restaurant chains have not cashed in on being known to have charging stations. Seems like a win win...come in and buy a meal for the traveling family and also make money on the charging station. I'm not an EV owner (projecting to be in 2026 ), but planning long trips around restaurant sit downs while the EV charges seems to be a no brainer to me.

I agree. I recently read that 7-Eleven is starting their own charging network. Pay to charge and while you have a break, come in and get some snacks. Seems like a good idea.

 

[Chaparral]

I just did a camping trip to Kings Canyon and Sequoia National Parks. This was another trip that would be almost impossible with electric.

We camped near Grant Grove in Kings Canyon for 6 nights and had no cell service for the entire week. We had to explore the vast area by car and took 2 trips to Hume Lake (each a 1 hour round trip), 2 trips to Sequoia (each a 2 hour round trip) and one to “Road’s End” at Cedar Grove (a 2 hour round trip). There were no gas stations in the National Parks and just two small gas stations in the National Forest areas. The National Park Service recommends calling ahead to check if they have gas. This created a little gas station anxiety. The nearest electric charger was about 1 hour away from camp at a hotel near Three Rivers and was probably reserved for guests. The next nearest was also about an hour away and a 7-8 thousand foot descent to Orange Cove on the Central valley floor which would be a massive detour that would ruin a day.

This trip would only be possible if the National Park Service or National Forest Service installed chargers at visitor centers or other properties. I don’t have much hope since some of the visitor’s centers don’t even have public wifi or clean toilets. The wifi we did get was so slow it often did not work at all. I really hope the charging infrastructure gets built out before the first Scouts roll off the production line. I’m left wondering hour much range I could get from a few hours of charging with a portable generator. Generator hours at campsites are often restricted. I really don’t know how it would be possible.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

I just did a camping trip to Kings Canyon and Sequoia National Parks. This was another trip that would be almost impossible with electric.

We camped near Grant Grove in Kings Canyon for 6 nights and had no cell service for the entire week. We had to explore the vast area by car and took 2 trips to Hume Lake (each a 1 hour round trip), 2 trips to Sequoia (each a 2 hour round trip) and one to “Road’s End” at Cedar Grove (a 2 hour round trip). There were no gas stations in the National Parks and just two small gas stations in the National Forest areas. The National Park Service recommends calling ahead to check if they have gas. This created a little gas station anxiety. The nearest electric charger was about 1 hour away from camp at a hotel near Three Rivers and was probably reserved for guests. The next nearest was also about an hour away and a 7-8 thousand foot descent to Orange Cove on the Central valley floor which would be a massive detour that would ruin a day.

This trip would only be possible if the National Park Service or National Forest Service installed chargers at visitor centers or other properties. I don’t have much hope since some of the visitor’s centers don’t even have public wifi or clean toilets. The wifi we did get was so slow it often did not work at all. I really hope the charging infrastructure gets built out before the first Scouts roll off the production line. I’m left wondering hour much range I could get from a few hours of charging with a portable generator. Generator hours at campsites are often restricted. I really don’t know how it would be possible.

That’s really helpful to have a concrete example. I expect that currently there are a fair number of places like this that would be impractical for most people to use EVs (esp since it’s even iffy with ICE ), though remember, all that is really needed to charge is electricity. Level 1 or 2 chargers can be run off a 110 or 240 outlet, so they should have the needed infrastructure at the visitor center as well as Hume lake. Hopefully things are improving, and as Jamie pointed out there are fewer barriers to installing charging stations vs gas, so it’s feasible to install chargers in places where a gas station wouldn’t be allowed. There even some off line self contained solar powered possibilities that don’t require a grid connection.

 

[Chaparral]

I’m really hoping the Scout has plenty of range or an option for a big battery pack. Some people seem to think electric vehicles should be built with as small a battery as possible and point to average trip lengths as proof that batteries should be small. I think this logic is flawed - a vehicle should be designed for the maximum trip length needed between opportunities to charge. The example I gave is not an edge case. Camping in a National Park or National Forest is something many people do regularly - and that can mean multiple days away from chargers with a large area to explore. If the Scout is for exploration it has to be capable of these kinds of trips.

Electricity is not always reliable in remote areas. Last year we were at one of the hotels in Yellowstone and a storm cut off the electricity. A generator at the hotel was used to run just the kitchen. I’ve had the same experience staying in a hotel in Fishcamp just outside Yosemite. Power lines that go through forested areas are a big fire risk because a tree could easily damage the line, so sometimes the power is turned off as a precaution when it gets windy. Chargers in remote areas should probably have solar arrays and/or batteries to give them some independence from the grid and allow them to continue operating when the grid goes down.

 

[JohnnyScout]

I’m really hoping the Scout has plenty of range or an option for a big battery pack. Some people seem to think electric vehicles should be built with as small a battery as possible and point to average trip lengths as proof that batteries should be small. I think this logic is flawed - a vehicle should be designed for the maximum trip length needed between opportunities to charge. The example I gave is not an edge case. Camping in a National Park or National Forest is something many people do regularly - and that can mean multiple days away from chargers with a large area to explore. If the Scout is for exploration it has to be capable of these kinds of trips.

Electricity is not always reliable in remote areas. Last year we were at one of the hotels in Yellowstone and a storm cut off the electricity. A generator at the hotel was used to run just the kitchen. I’ve had the same experience staying in a hotel in Fishcamp just outside Yosemite. Power lines that go through forested areas are a big fire risk because a tree could easily damage the line, so sometimes the power is turned off as a precaution when it gets windy. Chargers in remote areas should probably have solar arrays and/or batteries to give them some independence from the grid and allow them to continue operating when the grid goes down.

Our most often trip is 600 miles from PA to NC and currently we can do it with just one 5 minute stop for gas. Our new X4 with exactly same config as 3 year old X4 we traded consistently gets better mpg and a fill-up of its mere 16 gallon tank displays over 500 miles to empty. That should be the goal of any "family" EV, 500 miles to flat meaning you start looking for charging at around 350 miles in. Equivalent to starting to look for favorite brand of fuel with 150 miles to empty. If the EV only has a 250 mile range (on flat ground at or below posted speed limits) that means looking for charging every 100 miles.

Take a wrong turn in WV looking for charging and can't you just picture yourself as Ned Beatty (cue the dueling banjos)

 

[kb2crk]

Our most often trip is 600 miles from PA to NC and currently we can do it with just one 5 minute stop for gas. Our new X4 with exactly same config as 3 year old X4 we traded consistently gets better mpg and a fill-up of its mere 16 gallon tank displays over 500 miles to empty. That should be the goal of any "family" EV, 500 miles to flat meaning you start looking for charging at around 350 miles in. Equivalent to starting to look for favorite brand of fuel with 150 miles to empty. If the EV only has a 250 mile range (on flat ground at or below posted speed limits) that means looking for charging every 100 miles.

Take a wrong turn in WV looking for charging and can't you just picture yourself as Ned Beatty (cue the dueling banjos)

Now Now that happened to Ned Beatty in Georgia........

 

[J Alynn]

Our most often trip is 600 miles from PA to NC and currently we can do it with just one 5 minute stop for gas. Our new X4 with exactly same config as 3 year old X4 we traded consistently gets better mpg and a fill-up of its mere 16 gallon tank displays over 500 miles to empty. That should be the goal of any "family" EV, 500 miles to flat meaning you start looking for charging at around 350 miles in. Equivalent to starting to look for favorite brand of fuel with 150 miles to empty. If the EV only has a 250 mile range (on flat ground at or below posted speed limits) that means looking for charging every 100 miles.

Take a wrong turn in WV looking for charging and can't you just picture yourself as Ned Beatty (cue the dueling banjos)

I stopped at one of those stations once. Shit you not-a pick up pulled in with two recliners in the back bed-with occupants-holding beers and the gun rack in rear window appeared full. I was afraid to take a picture but it may be one of the greatest highlights in my life of travel !!!

 

[RebelliousPeasant]

Longer range means bigger battery which sounds fine but what that really means is “more expensive”. There are a lot of places to charge, even in the middle of nowhere, that many might not even realize exist. EV drivers can find them because we have apps and know what to look for. That’s not to say the infrastructure is perfect, but it’s not terrible and is getting better by the day. If the vehicles have a 500-ish km that would be more than adequate for almost everyone. (I’m Canadian, miles are gibberish to me!)

If you need more than that fine, be prepared to pay more or just get one of the many gas guzzlers out there that are already available. 500km range is a very reasonable amount and should be fairly affordable in any modern EV. Couple that with very fast charging and you’re golden! You can find electricity even in the most remote places and if there’s a lot of backwoods type stuff there’s usually an RV plug somewhere nearby. I think it would be great if Scout shipped their vehicles with a charger similar to the Tesla one where if does both Level 1 and 2 as well as comes with a bunch of different connectors so you can plug into a normal wall outlet or an RV plug or a 240V dryer plug etc.

 

[Chaparral]

For the camping trip I did there was about 350 miles (563km) of driving over about 10 hours between when we passing near a charger. This was not very efficient driving. It is unclear to me wether an EV can expect to be able to drive into any RV park and get charged up. I don’t think I would rely on that. There is no electricity at camping sites in the area we were exploring and the nearest RV park is currently cut off from the area because the road between was washed away after wild fires a couple of years ago.

I’d really like to see a 400+ mile range and the charging network built out in more in remote areas.

I also wonder if it would be possible to have a solar array that unfolds above the vehicle when it is parked. An array no larger than the footprint of the vehicle could provide 1500 watts for several hours a day and I think that that could provide more than 100 miles of range over a week long summer camping trip!

 

[Albal]

By my rough estimate, a 400W panel placed horizontally in all day sun can generate anywhere from 2.3 to 7.3 miles worth of energy per day at San Francisco's latitude, depending on season. 2.3 miles for Dec & Jan. 7.3 for June/July. This is assuming a vehicle efficiency of 3 miles per kWh and all power generated goes to movement. I used this site to determine the solar panel's performance:
https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php
using the default values, but having the panel be horizontal. And I came up with the 3 miles/kWh performance by just looking around current numbers then guessing. So this is a very rough estimate, but gives you an idea of things.

So you could get 50 miles in a week of charging during the summer. Not bad!

You could improve things further in a variety of ways, like storing multiple panels in the truck and taking them out as desired. Also, re-pointing a panel a few times per day would improve things a bit as well.

 

[J Alynn]

By my rough estimate, a 400W panel placed horizontally in all day sun can generate anywhere from 2.3 to 7.3 miles worth of energy per day at San Francisco's latitude, depending on season. 2.3 miles for Dec & Jan. 7.3 for June/July. This is assuming a vehicle efficiency of 3 miles per kWh and all power generated goes to movement. I used this site to determine the solar panel's performance:
https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php
using the default values, but having the panel be horizontal. And I came up with the 3 miles/kWh performance by just looking around current numbers then guessing. So this is a very rough estimate, but gives you an idea of things.

So you could get 50 miles in a week of charging during the summer. Not bad!

You could improve things further in a variety of ways, like storing multiple panels in the truck and taking them out as desired. Also, re-pointing a panel a few times per day would improve things a bit as well.

But based on cost of those panels and weight (decreased range) it’s a big trade off for what “could” be 50 miles. If inclement weather the gain could be 10miles then you still have a problem.
I think the easiest solution, like Tesla is to offer three battery range sizes and those (majority) who use it for local family duty can get mall battery and those trailering a camper or boat/or overlanding can pay for the max battery package. Seems like the simplest solution. But as constantly noted, the excess weight for non use times kills your range as an offset so ultimately something has to give

 

[Albal]

I agree at least two battery sizes should be available. If you don't road trip a lot, live in a milder climate and don't do a lot of towing, a smaller battery would do nicely. If the charge rate is good, even a smaller battery would be fine on most road trips in most areas of the country.

As for solar (and a built in solar charge controller), I think it gives some nice perks and increased flexibility that highlight what an EV can do that ICE cannot. Not always usable, but when you park outside you'll get a trickle of "free gas". Also, if the Scout ends up boxy as anticipated, it helps turns that (aero) disadvantage into a (solar) advantage.

 

[Chaparral]

But based on cost of those panels and weight (decreased range) it’s a big trade off for what “could” be 50 miles. If inclement weather the gain could be 10miles then you still have a problem.
I think the easiest solution, like Tesla is to offer three battery range sizes and those (majority) who use it for local family duty can get mall battery and those trailering a camper or boat/or overlanding can pay for the max battery package. Seems like the simplest solution. But as constantly noted, the excess weight for non use times kills your range as an offset so ultimately something has to give

A durable 400W portable solar panel is about 34lbs. That’s a tiny faction of the weight of the vehicle. The loss due to carrying extra mass would be very small and even more negligible if the vehicle is parked for long periods while gaining from the panel compared to relatively short driving periods when there is some loss from carrying the extra weight.

Carrying an extra 100lbs on a 400 miles trip to a camping destination to have 1200W of panels at camp might only reduce range by something like 7 miles. Then over the week of summer camping it adds a net 100 miles or more. So long as carrying panels is a gain it does not really matter how many you carry so long as you use them to full effect.

A big battery costs several thousand more dollars and perhaps the extra capacity is only needed a few times a year. 1200W of panels might be less than $1400, and 400W about $450. It would significantly extend range on a long camping trip and could also provide clean power every day of the year. It would certainly be cost effective so long as the panel is deployed frequently and put to work. The key would be having something quick and easy to deploy because if it is not used it is just dead weight. You’d probably need to deploy it at least one day a week if you are carrying it all the time.

 

[J Alynn]

A durable 400W portable solar panel is about 34lbs. That’s a tiny faction of the weight of the vehicle. The loss due to carrying extra mass would be very small and even more negligible if the vehicle is parked for long periods while gaining from the panel compared to relatively short driving periods when there is some loss from carrying the extra weight.

Carrying an extra 100lbs on a 400 miles trip to a camping destination to have 1200W of panels at camp might only reduce range by something like 7 miles. Then over the week of summer camping it adds a net 100 miles or more. So long as carrying panels is a gain it does not really matter how many you carry so long as you use them to full effect.

A big battery costs several thousand more dollars and perhaps the extra capacity is only needed a few times a year. 1200W of panels might be less than $1400, and 400W about $450. It would significantly extend range on a long camping trip and could also provide clean power every day of the year. It would certainly be cost effective so long as the panel is deployed frequently and put to work. The key would be having something quick and easy to deploy because if it is not used it is just dead weight. You’d probably need to deploy it at least one day a week if you are carrying it all the time.

Can’t disagree but you need to factor in where you are storing it which eats up cargo space as well which intern creates a damage risk. If you bag them, lay them flat and then sit stuff on top you have nuisance of getting them in and out or you risk damaging by loading on top and shifting loads/toppling loads.
For wilderness I agree for the small area of locations where one would park and not have tree shadowing blocking the gain. But for majority, as noted throughout thread posts with a few cord converters you could park just about anywhere for a couple hours and plug into a standard outlet and charge much more simply than dragging panels with damage risks. In your scenario of remote camping panels might be best but everyday life they seem a bit impractical for the reasons listed above. That said-to each his own. Look how many wranglers drive around with 37’s on the rims and all to look cool. You do you and everyone enjoys their rides they way they want.

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Can’t disagree but you need to factor in where you are storing it which eats up cargo space as well which intern creates a damage risk. If you bag them, lay them flat and then sit stuff on top you have nuisance of getting them in and out or you risk damaging by loading on top and shifting loads/toppling loads.
For wilderness I agree for the small area of locations where one would park and not have tree shadowing blocking the gain. But for majority, as noted throughout thread posts with a few cord converters you could park just about anywhere for a couple hours and plug into a standard outlet and charge much more simply than dragging panels with damage risks. In your scenario of remote camping panels might be best but everyday life they seem a bit impractical for the reasons listed above. That said-to each his own. Look how many wranglers drive around with 37’s on the rims and all to look cool. You do you and everyone enjoys their rides they way they want.

Aptera has developed technology around incorporating solar panels on the body of the car (roof, hood, maybe even sides), light but durable.

 

[J Alynn]

Perhaps a better vehicle choice

Why Doesn’t Every Electric Car Have Solar Panels?

Seems like a simple enough solution: Put solar panels on an electric car and there's no reason to plug it in, right? Well, it's not so simple, but recent developments and new car models may indicate things are heading that direction.

www.forbes.com