Interesting article about the engineering underneath the new Scouts

[Albal]

I Crawled Underneath The New Scout To Look At The Engineering. Here's What I Found - The Autopian

As beautiful as the new Scout Traveler and Terra are, one thing that we haven’t seen nearly enough of is hardware. We’ve seen the sheetmetal and the fancy interior, we’ve heard all the specs, we’ve listened to all the heritage mumbo-jumbo marketing, but let’s all be honest: We want to see...

www.theautopian.com

Includes thoughts from Kevin Harty at Munro and Associates.

The most interesting part is the information about the EBeam rear axle. It's not just a solid rear axle, but the motor is actually mounted to the axle itself.

 

[Czernobog]

Thanks for sharing that. This, if accurate, alters my bias towards pure EV rather than Harvester...much lower battery capacity than I was imagining for the Harvester configuration.

...that charges the battery after the battery has depleted, which should happen after about 100 to 150 miles of EV-only range, per Scout.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

I would only caution not to infer too much from the concepts. While fairly accurate in the majority of ways, the mechanical aspects on hand-built concepts aren't always fully baked. For instance, the electric motor powering the concepts isn't based on our actual systems. It is only there to get vehicles on and off trucks and to the area that they can be displayed.

 

[Czernobog]

Very fair and valid points. I shall endeavor to be patient for production specs, rather than seizing on details gleaned from these prototypes.

 

[pnwgamerdad]

After too much studying, I'm betting the e-beam rear axle was disconnected completely, hence the comment above. There are no signs of power cables, the oil cooler only had 1 bolt on, everything was flat black, etc. Good enough for display while the real bits get figured out and tested.

Also, this new e-beam axle isn't anywhere I can find on the market, so I am also assuming it's a custom design. Tier 1 suppliers close to the new plant (50% sourced within 200 miles), leaves only a handful of manufactures. Each manufacturer I noticed has a distinct design style. The axle in the Scout reminded me of my youth and current axles. Hmmm.... No, not a fancy cutting edge Euro style design. Nope, not a banjo axle conversion on Alibaba. Hmmm.. Wait, wasn't there a tier 1 plant in South Carolina that shut down? Oh look on LinkedIn at their employees and where they live and hiring. Hmm.. while their product photos and industry announcements don't show the Scout axle, even in the background I checked, their design style and castings are nearly identical.

But, the oil cooler gave it away. I think I know who built that E-Beam and I can't wait to see it in action!

 

[J Alynn]

After too much studying, I'm betting the e-beam rear axle was disconnected completely, hence the comment above. There are no signs of power cables, the oil cooler only had 1 bolt on, everything was flat black, etc. Good enough for display while the real bits get figured out and tested.

Also, this new e-beam axle isn't anywhere I can find on the market, so I am also assuming it's a custom design. Tier 1 suppliers close to the new plant (50% sourced within 200 miles), leaves only a handful of manufactures. Each manufacturer I noticed has a distinct design style. The axle in the Scout reminded me of my youth and current axles. Hmmm.... No, not a fancy cutting edge Euro style design. Nope, not a banjo axle conversion on Alibaba. Hmmm.. Wait, wasn't there a tier 1 plant in South Carolina that shut down? Oh look on LinkedIn at their employees and where they live and hiring. Hmm.. while their product photos and industry announcements don't show the Scout axle, even in the background I checked, their design style and castings are nearly identical.

But, the oil cooler gave it away. I think I know who built that E-Beam and I can't wait to see it in action!

We asked Jamie about this at the reveal. Sounds like the design is pretty solid but no word on manufacturer. Sounds like they are still deciding who so throw your ideas out there then when they eventually announce you can claim victory . I suggested the two colors for the reveal and so it was-made me feel special for like 2 seconds-HaHa!

 

[Albal]

I'm assuming Jamie's statement indicates that the final design may not be an ebeam type at all (ie with the electric motor bolted on to the rear axle and thus part of the unsprung weight). Increasing the unsprung weight even more than a solid rear axle (which already weighs more than an independent suspension), will make it handle....like my original 800A!

I know a lot of avid offroaders like the solid rear axle (and perhaps even more like the bragging rights), but I was disappointed when I heard about it. I don't need a vehicle optimized for rock crawling, and I'd rather not suffer day-to-day in order to have bragging rights. I'm too old for that s..tuff. Even with an independent suspension, it would still outperform the vast majority of SUVs out there and it would also have a great ride for road trips. Perfectly capable. Perfectly comfortable.

 

[nolen]

We asked Jamie about this at the reveal. Sounds like the design is pretty solid but no word on manufacturer. Sounds like they are still deciding who so throw your ideas out there then when they eventually announce you can claim victory . I suggested the two colors for the reveal and so it was-made me feel special for like 2 seconds-HaHa!

I mentioned having the seat on the frunk! That was a cool feeling to see it

 

[Mousehunter]

I have owned a ton of vehicles with solid rear axles - they really don't worry me. I will admit, my Tacoma with it's independent front suspension is far more comfortable on rough roads than either of my 2 Jeeps or my F250. Disconnecting the sway bars helps a decent amount on the Jeeps - but the Taco is just in a different league. That said, the Taco has racing shocks and upgraded A arms as well. It should be night and day difference.

Departure angle of the rear tire carrier does not really bother me all that much either - I don't rock crawl. If I did - I am sure I could find somewhere else to store the rear wheel. I don't think that is all that uncommon either.

I do agree that the rockers look low - they are below the midpoint of the axles. That said, there is plenty of love/hate about the height of the vehicle. I kind of took a poll at full sized SUV's in the parking lot at work today. Now work is not a good cross section of the public. I am working at a business that does kid's field trips - and those field trips are generally pre-k to 3rd grade (abet we do get about 10% of private schools that often send their HS students as well). As such, we have a very disproportional cross section of vehicles - we get a lot of young kid movers. Of the trucks and SUV's - 1 truck was 4x4, all had running boards except for 1 truck. All the trucks did have considerably higher rockers than the Scout. The SUV's had lower. I have no clue why any of those SUV's would need running boards - but they all had them. 40% were retracting, 60% were fixed. The Truck running boards were a mix of side steps on tubes, and full running boards. Honestly, I thought full running boards went out of style over 30 years ago. I have no clue where these people are buying their vehicles.

 

[Scout_about]

Wonder if they are considering Dana's new E44 and E60 direct motor drive solid axle configurations. No need for a center diff as each axle would have its own motor.

 

[Albal]

Wonder if they are considering Dana's new E44 and E60 direct motor drive solid axle configurations. No need for a center diff as each axle would have its own motor.

I assume a motor in front and one in back, like most 4wd EVs. Otherwise you need a center tunnel and get rid of the big EV packaging benefits (small motors low in front and back plus a big flat battery give you loads of usable space for cabin, storage etc).

 

[Albal]

I have owned a ton of vehicles with solid rear axles - they really don't worry me. I will admit, my Tacoma with it's independent front suspension is far more comfortable on rough roads than either of my 2 Jeeps or my F250. Disconnecting the sway bars helps a decent amount on the Jeeps - but the Taco is just in a different league. That said, the Taco has racing shocks and upgraded A arms as well. It should be night and day difference.

My previous two vehicles were Tacomas, one with the off road package and one before they were offered. Now I drive an older S Class. Air suspension but not active suspension. It’s amazing how good the ride quality is, and it’s not even state of the art. I didn’t realize driving could be like this. Why aren’t all cars like this? It’s like driving on freshly paved roads wherever you go. And I was surprised at how much difference that made on road trips - how much more relaxing and enjoyable they were. So my ideal now is something like the new Scout, but with a fully independent suspension for day to day driving and road tripping. They already said that it’s going to have air and active suspension. That’d also make it better on fire roads/etc. Everything except the most extreme stuff.

 

[IHScout]

Very fair and valid points. I shall endeavor to be patient for production specs, rather than seizing on details gleaned from these prototypes.

My OCD will consume every breadcrumb for the next couple of years. I just preorder this morning and spent my whole day reviewing the threads for every little detail while attending yet another meeting.

 

[BD1]

Interesting article. He has concerns about unsprung weight on the axles. I have not seen this discussed?

 

[Albal]

Interesting article. He has concerns about unsprung weight on the axles. I have not seen this discussed?

Jamie@ScoutMotors's response above was somewhat reassuring, as far as not attaching an electric motor to the axle. He said that the drivetrain on those concept vehicles was not the final design, just something to allow it to drive onto the stage. That said, even a solid rear axle by itself is a lot of unsprung weight, so they're going to have a challenge making it ride well compared to a modern suspension. In that sense Scout is not scouting ahead (like, say, Rivian), but lagging behind.

 

[jamski]

Cool article. I was wondering how they were going to do the rear end. That EBeam looks pretty solid.

 

[Mousehunter]

A lot depends on what you are looking for. 4 wheel independent suspension will have less unsprung weight and will generally have a nicer ride. More modern... Accept when you look at most serious off road vehicles, they have gone to solid axles for durability. Kind of like why a Chevy 1/2 ton will have independent front suspension, while a Ford will have a solid axle. It is a Chevy vs Ford question. Likewise, while it might be a coincidence. I see more solid axles on heavier vehicles and more independent on lighter vehicles. With today's battery density, the size and shape of the Scout, and the targeted range - this WILL NOT be a light vehicle.

 

[Logan]

A lot depends on what you are looking for. 4 wheel independent suspension will have less unsprung weight and will generally have a nicer ride. More modern... Accept when you look at most serious off road vehicles, they have gone to solid axles for durability. Kind of like why a Chevy 1/2 ton will have independent front suspension, while a Ford will have a solid axle. It is a Chevy vs Ford question. Likewise, while it might be a coincidence. I see more solid axles on heavier vehicles and more independent on lighter vehicles. With today's battery density, the size and shape of the Scout, and the targeted range - this WILL NOT be a light vehicle.

I get what you're trying to say here.

But, point of fact half ton trucks have had independent front suspension for ages. The last time the F150 had an actual solid front axle, was in 1979. The Chevy Silverado 1500 had solid front axles until 1988. Currently, neither have solid front axles, and both of them still have solid rear axles. Although, the Ram 1500 has had independent suspension front and rear since 2009. Perhaps you were thinking 3/4 ton trucks? The F250 does have a solid front axle the last time I looked, and I believe the Chevy 2500's and above have had independent front suspension since... 1993? (when they dropped the old boxy body style).

Anyway, solid axles are stronger and more durable as mentioned. They also tend to be the preferred setup for hardcore rock crawling, as you get better articulation (at least the last time I checked, even the pro rock crawling buggies were all solid axles, even though they'd tried advanced independent suspension). They're also easier to lift.

Independent suspension rides better because they have less unsprung weight, and each wheel is isolated from the other. They are also more difficult to lift/modify.

A pretty common setup for vehicles these days are independent front suspension, with a solid rear axle. The current generation Ford Bronco does this, as does the new Toyota Land Cruiser and the Silverado 1500 and F150 mentioned previous. Not only those, but also other pretty well known "offroady" vehicles like the Nissan Xterra, Hummer H2 and H3, the Toyota FJ Cruiser.

The Jeep Wrangler and Jeep Gladiator are really the only commonly seen offroad vehicles in USA that still have solid front and rear axles.

 

[Mousehunter]

I thought my 2000 Ford F150 still had a solid front axle, but I sold it 8 years ago - so could be wrong. My Dodge did have a solid front axle - but sold it closer to 25 years ago - and I only remember it was a solid axle because I managed to rip it off.

My truck is a solid front axle F250, and both of my families Jeeps are solid front axle. The ride quality of either is fine for me (abet the newer Rubicon is better than my LJ). Both are much nicer than my heavier F250. I have a Gen 1 Tacoma - and offroad the ride quality is very nice (it is fairly modified for high speed offroad driving)- but I can tolerate the offroad ride quality of my LJ (getting better would cost over $8k in modifications, and still would not equal the Tacoma). I have to go pretty slow not to get beat to death with the F250 (stock, but I have not found any modifications that might change that). I swear I have almost bounced tool boxes out of the bed of the truck before. I keep meds in the truck to do long road trips as well. Love everything else about the F250, but it's suspention.

Suspention is always a trade off. I used to drive sports cars - but honestly I knew by 30 that my back was too old for stiff performance suspention. Fun arround town, but too much of a toll for multi-hour trips.

 

[Logan]

I thought my 2000 Ford F150 still had a solid front axle, but I sold it 8 years ago - so could be wrong. My Dodge did have a solid front axle - but sold it closer to 25 years ago - and I only remember it was a solid axle because I managed to rip it off.

My truck is a solid front axle F250, and both of my families Jeeps are solid front axle. The ride quality of either is fine for me (abet the newer Rubicon is better than my LJ). Both are much nicer than my heavier F250. I have a Gen 1 Tacoma - and offroad the ride quality is very nice (it is fairly modified for high speed offroad driving)- but I can tolerate the offroad ride quality of my LJ (getting better would cost over $8k in modifications, and still would not equal the Tacoma). I have to go pretty slow not to get beat to death with the F250 (stock, but I have not found any modifications that might change that). I swear I have almost bounced tool boxes out of the bed of the truck before. I keep meds in the truck to do long road trips as well. Love everything else about the F250, but it's suspention.

Suspention is always a trade off. I used to drive sports cars - but honestly I knew by 30 that my back was too old for stiff performance suspention. Fun arround town, but too much of a toll for multi-hour trips.

oh, I daily a lifted ZJ (1997 with the straight 6) with some suspension work that still needs to be done. So I get totally understand “interesting ride quality” related problems .

Just was pointing out that it wasn’t so much a “ford vs Chevy” thing. And that the independent front suspension with solid rear axle is a pretty solid platform, and good middle ground for ride/steering, as well as simplicity and strength (which is why ford and Chevy have been doing that same setup on their trucks for like 30 years).

Good stuff.