Buttons vs screens

[Rustic_father]

I think you hit on something here. While the Scout will be EV and by that nature draw a younger, outdoorsy demographic, many buyers will be older as they know the name Scout.

I think to piggy back on this thought of yours and to tie it into a different discussion we are all having in the other thread: While everybody can agree that the original design and spirit of the scout should be the base point the big difficult thing that the company has to do is to balance appeasing the already established fan base while also needing to attract new people that are not already fans.

I am in my 30s so i could be apart of the "young" or "old" crowd depending how you look at it. but I have admitted to not knowing the original scout prior to the release. I think that nearly everything that has been discussed here has been very forward thinking and open to adapting the old origional scout in to something for the 21st century.

 

[J Alynn]

Its also fair to say that buttons and knobs [and gauge cluster] can help bring in that reto feel/look as well. I personally never have liked what Tesla created with their dash layout, or lack there of. Although I can appreciate all the cool things it can do within the touchscreen; its just too boring. Yes, buttons and knobs will cost to produce, but it's money that needs to be spent. The look and feel of the dash is so critical to the comfort and enjoyment for the driver and passengers. It is where our eyes (and hands) spend most of the time looking at while owning a vehicle.

I would be curious to see a modern take on the classic Scout II style...
View attachment 630

Throwing this out there as well. I have always liked the climate control knobs in my 2022 Chevy Silverado. Both driver and passanger knob rotates on the outside to adjust the desired temp, which is digitally displayed on the face of the knob. The driver side has the auto button on the face of it (typically always on). The passenger side has a sync button on the face that just uses the same temp that is set on the drivers side for when passengers are not in the vehicle. I also like the feel of the button cluster at the bottom of the dash. Each button has an LED light on the front of it showing when it is activated. This would be a useful layout for the Scout creating some buttons that come standard from the factory, and spare slots for adding future plug and play buttons for each owner to customize their own Scout.
View attachment 633

Those temp knobs are basically same as the new Bronco so I’ll second that idea again since I didn’t know the Chevy had them

 

[J Alynn]

Not sure if this YouTube video link will work. Watched a video about the Bronco design process and it was pretty interesting. It was back during the pandemic but CNET posted it. Interesting to hear the designer’s approach to a modern version of a heritage vehicle. It’s almost a 1/2 hour but interesting if you’ve got spare time. Made me think about the process a bit differently from some points of view.

 

[Spiegelglatt]

I think there is a part of nostalgia and identity that is lost when we only rely on screens. I see a lot of comparison to cell phone evolution when reading about the haptic and screens in some of the newer cars-so to look back I used BlackBerry’s since I guess around 2006 or so and only recently switched to an IPhone 13 Pro Max about a year ago (was up at midnight to order when they came out lol). My immediate reaction was I loved the larger screen real estate but typing took (and still takes) MUCH longer and there are more typos. From this phone to some of the older IPhones there isn’t much difference other than operating wise, cameras, screen resolution and so on…where as through the years with BB I had an emotional attachment to each phone model separately…as much as I love the IPhone 13 it is a disposable hood that won’t be remembers outside of just being an amazing IPhone (but can’t be differentiated much in peoples memories from other phones).

In an everyday commuter car or family sedan perhaps there is a big market and space for touchscreens and haptic buttons…but I think retro and off-road (not poser, but the real deal) might not be the place for so much of this. Part of this is functionality (gloves, filthy hands, and tactile need while in snow and ice, or sand…both things you can’t be looking down at a screen for.

Then there is the fact that screens are bright and as much as I LOVE my IPhone (I really do I am a convert they are great) they hurt my eyes and night and make it so I can’t see as well.

I probably sounds like I am old, but am only 40 and get alone great with tech…I just feel it has its place and it shouldn’t be so much in a off-road Ute because that is a long term asset and not a disposable good. I know screens and software can be updated to so new and “amazing” things where buttons are sort of stuck in the moment but for something I love -my 2007 Touareg- I am ok with that. I also love the look of my dash at night in the “classic” gauges and bottoms interior…I know it isn’t for everyone but it sure is for me.

Oh and yeah I was using low range to limit my speed because I tend to have a led foot and we had horrible ice here back around Christmas so bad my kids fell down when we got out but just the good old BF Goodrich KO2 tires I have been running for years (replaced every 8 just in case someone worried I was running old tires…same model tire each time).

 

[Rustic_father]

I think there is a part of nostalgia and identity that is lost when we only rely on screens. I see a lot of comparison to cell phone evolution when reading about the haptic and screens in some of the newer cars-so to look back I used BlackBerry’s since I guess around 2006 or so and only recently switched to an IPhone 13 Pro Max about a year ago (was up at midnight to order when they came out lol). My immediate reaction was I loved the larger screen real estate but typing took (and still takes) MUCH longer and there are more typos. From this phone to some of the older IPhones there isn’t much difference other than operating wise, cameras, screen resolution and so on…where as through the years with BB I had an emotional attachment to each phone model separately…as much as I love the IPhone 13 it is a disposable hood that won’t be remembers outside of just being an amazing IPhone (but can’t be differentiated much in peoples memories from other phones).

I was given a blackberry for work and I absolutely hated it, the buttons were too tiny and my fingers ways would hit 2 or 3.

In an everyday commuter car or family sedan perhaps there is a big market and space for touchscreens and haptic buttons…but I think retro and off-road (not poser, but the real deal) might not be the place for so much of this. Part of this is functionality (gloves, filthy hands, and tactile need while in snow and ice, or sand…both things you can’t be looking down at a screen for.

I would hate to sound like a broken record but I've had this conversation often when people are complaining about screens and buttons especially when I first got my Tesla. I challenge everyone to actually not look at the center console and see how many functions you can actually accomplish without taking your eye off the road for a second. Everybody does a darting glance to make sure they have the right knob and then again when they turn it to make sure that it was turned on/off or to the exact setting.

There really are very few function on a center console that are truely hands free. Other than a volume knob everyone looks.

I have quite the muscle memory with my screen. I know exactly where the temperature is. I know exactly where the seat heater is. So I often hook my hand under the spot on the screen, take a glance and press after I confirm.

I'm not advocating for everything to be on a screen, but I really am tired of people claiming that they could do all these things when they don't.

Again I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want people to realize that these claims they are making are grossly over exaggerated and I want people to think logically and look at these situations with an open mind

 

[J Alynn]

I was given a blackberry for work and I absolutely hated it, the buttons were too tiny and my fingers ways would hit 2 or 3.

I would hate to sound like a broken record but I've had this conversation often when people are complaining about screens and buttons especially when I first got my Tesla. I challenge everyone to actually not look at the center console and see how many functions you can actually accomplish without taking your eye off the road for a second. Everybody does a darting glance to make sure they have the right knob and then again when they turn it to make sure that it was turned on/off or to the exact setting.

There really are very few function on a center console that are truely hands free. Other than a volume knob everyone looks.

I have quite the muscle memory with my screen. I know exactly where the temperature is. I know exactly where the seat heater is. So I often hook my hand under the spot on the screen, take a glance and press after I confirm.

I'm not advocating for everything to be on a screen, but I really am tired of people claiming that they could do all these things when they don't.

Again I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want people to realize that these claims they are making are grossly over exaggerated and I want people to think logically and look at these situations with an open mind

I think this is a debate that isn’t going to be settled easily. You have made it clear that the screen is the way to go. That said, you were honest in saying you never had nor knew of Scout. I think what you are seeing is many of us want nostalgia of the vehicle and that comes with an interaction that can’t (I think in our minds) be satisfied by “swiping” a screen.
I think it’s about authenticity.
For example, I am an architect by profession and have been designing for nearly 28 years. A day at work doesn’t go by that I don’t use Autocad. It’s faster, easily editable and multifunctional. It provides extremely accurate results. All that said, an imperfect, hand drawn pencil/marker drawing is more satisfying to create and better receivers by an audience because it connects to an inherent emotion. It happens every time. I think this is how many of us feel.
I think as enthusiasts we want the interaction. Reaching, turning a knob and interacting is different than tapping a screen. When changing something and hitting a bump on a non-paved road you can’t hold on to a touchscreen and I believe (my opinion only) that these are the reasons folks on this forum are pushing for physical controls. Maybe someone else has another point of view but based on everyone’s top 10 items, the large majority all seem to want physical controls.

 

[Tysiak]

Let’s collectively start a discussion on buttons and screens. I’ve had both and everything in between. Don’t forget that good voice control can do a lot of functions without searching for buttons or going into the screen pages. I’ll start with a few ideas.

Buttons/lever
1. Defrost
2. Wipers
3. Suspension control
4. 4x4 control
5. Seat and steering wheel position setting control

Screen
1. All other HVAC controls (they’re mostly automatic anyway nowadays)
2. Stereo / Nav/ CarPlay
3. Personal settings like interior lights, lights on after lock, child lock controls, etc.
4. Some sort of entertainment like Tesla has. My kids love watching Disney plus on it.

I would agree with all of this with one caveat re: hvac controls. Some people like to personalize their settings while driving, which can be difficult to navigate on a touchscreen while driving. Also, seat heaters/steering wheel heaters make more sense via button to me as well, for what it’s worth

 

[Rustic_father]

I think this is a debate that isn’t going to be settled easily. You have made it clear that the screen is the way to go. That said, you were honest in saying you never had nor knew of Scout. I think what you are seeing is many of us want nostalgia of the vehicle and that comes with an interaction that can’t (I think in our minds) be satisfied by “swiping” a screen.
I think it’s about authenticity.
For example, I am an architect by profession and have been designing for nearly 28 years. A day at work doesn’t go by that I don’t use Autocad. It’s faster, easily editable and multifunctional. It provides extremely accurate results. All that said, an imperfect, hand drawn pencil/marker drawing is more satisfying to create and better receivers by an audience because it connects to an inherent emotion. It happens every time. I think this is how many of us feel.
I think as enthusiasts we want the interaction. Reaching, turning a knob and interacting is different than tapping a screen. When changing something and hitting a bump on a non-paved road you can’t hold on to a touchscreen and I believe (my opinion only) that these are the reasons folks on this forum are pushing for physical controls. Maybe someone else has another point of view but based on everyone’s top 10 items, the large majority all seem to want physical controls.

To be clear I don't think the "screen is the way to go".....I just feel I need to advocate for not making it have 1000 useless buttons.

I just find it hard when people make claims that they don't have to take their eyes off the road to use a button because it is physical. These claims are false....everybody looks and I just want to make sure people are honest about it. Having a discussion based on false claims is not an honest discussion. Also many people have simply not attempted or even used a car with a touch screen and simply rant about "these darn screens" but don't have any 1st hand knowledge.

I know nastalga and tactile feeling is a very valid reason for real physical buttons....I agree. I personally use a mechanical keyboard because I prefer the tactile response as opposed to a sissor Mac keyboard or a membrane keyboard. in my opinion "feel" is a real and valid reason.

Perhaps I'm doing a bad job of getting my point across because sometimes I get hung up on details. I'll list out a few of my points just to try to get my ideas out:

- things that 'Need' to be pressed while driving absolutely should be physical buttons/knobs (such as windshield wipers, lights, driving 'gear', hazards)

- things that are conviences and will often be used while driving should have buttons/knobs ( such as volume, temperature dial, seat warmer, defrost)

- things that are not used during driving or buttons that don't get pushed every week or month probably do not need its own physical button and it should be taken care of on the screen. (Things such as off road settings, mirrors, am/FM radio, etc)

- each unique button has a lot of complexities such as design, production, shipping, and installation. So when this is a ground up design and company.....I say keep it simple. Make buttons for the things we need and let the rest be handled with "easy" software.

I know I did not know original scout before the announcement but I do really love the astetics and the spirit that the scout is. I don't want to break what everyone loves, I just want to enhance it

 

[J Alynn]

To be clear I don't think the "screen is the way to go".....I just feel I need to advocate for not making it have 1000 useless buttons.

I just find it hard when people make claims that they don't have to take their eyes off the road to use a button because it is physical. These claims are false....everybody looks and I just want to make sure people are honest about it. Having a discussion based on false claims is not an honest discussion. Also many people have simply not attempted or even used a car with a touch screen and simply rant about "these darn screens" but don't have any 1st hand knowledge.

I know nastalga and tactile feeling is a very valid reason for real physical buttons....I agree. I personally use a mechanical keyboard because I prefer the tactile response as opposed to a sissor Mac keyboard or a membrane keyboard. in my opinion "feel" is a real and valid reason.

Perhaps I'm doing a bad job of getting my point across because sometimes I get hung up on details. I'll list out a few of my points just to try to get my ideas out:

- things that 'Need' to be pressed while driving absolutely should be physical buttons/knobs (such as windshield wipers, lights, driving 'gear', hazards)

- things that are conviences and will often be used while driving should have buttons/knobs ( such as volume, temperature dial, seat warmer, defrost)

- things that are not used during driving or buttons that don't get pushed every week or month probably do not need its own physical button and it should be taken care of on the screen. (Things such as off road settings, mirrors, am/FM radio, etc)

- each unique button has a lot of complexities such as design, production, shipping, and installation. So when this is a ground up design and company.....I say keep it simple. Make buttons for the things we need and let the rest be handled with "easy" software.

I know I did not know original scout before the announcement but I do really love the astetics and the spirit that the scout is. I don't want to break what everyone loves, I just want to enhance it

Appreciate you clarifying and so you know I wasn’t criticizing your thoughts in any way. I really like the open dialog this forum presents. I’m in agreement on your thoughts as you just clarified.
Having my Acura it has the touch pad on the console with the “zoned” touch points. This has been criticized by every auto media group but after we had it for a few months we found it extremely easy to use and it is truly easy to keep eyes on road

 

[Spiegelglatt]

I was given a blackberry for work and I absolutely hated it, the buttons were too tiny and my fingers ways would hit 2 or 3.

I would hate to sound like a broken record but I've had this conversation often when people are complaining about screens and buttons especially when I first got my Tesla. I challenge everyone to actually not look at the center console and see how many functions you can actually accomplish without taking your eye off the road for a second. Everybody does a darting glance to make sure they have the right knob and then again when they turn it to make sure that it was turned on/off or to the exact setting.

There really are very few function on a center console that are truely hands free. Other than a volume knob everyone looks.

I have quite the muscle memory with my screen. I know exactly where the temperature is. I know exactly where the seat heater is. So I often hook my hand under the spot on the screen, take a glance and press after I confirm.

I'm not advocating for everything to be on a screen, but I really am tired of people claiming that they could do all these things when they don't.

Again I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want people to realize that these claims they are making are grossly over exaggerated and I want people to think logically and look at these situations with an open mind

It might not be fair as I have been driving the same vehicle for 14 years and truly know where everything is by touch. I will tell a brief story of when I needed this:

I was out doing inspections on some properties and got took a wrong turn and needed to turn around. This was a fairly urban area but I saw what looked like a turn around on a lot behind a building. So I hopped the curb and sidewalk to drive back on the lot and turn around (had what looked like a road they looped a tree) once I was on the lot I realized that the ground was deep mud in fact and not dry hard ground like I thought it was (this was summer). I circled to the back of the lot and it was down hill going as I rounded the bend I saw a slope and ditch they had been hidden and instinctually I moved my hand down and turned off ESP so that I could have full power (ESP cuts throttle and can get you stuck when you need momentum) immediately I heard the transfer case lock the front axle and I was able to crawl out with power and momentum. Then I made a terrible mess of the road and had the classic sound of mud hitting my roof and windshield as I exited onto the street.

If I had to look for a “turn off ESP” function in a touchscreen I wouldn’t have had such an easy time….mind you I was wearing a suit and tie with dress shoes and had no interest in getting out.

There was also a study that shows what I think many have been talking about regarding touchscreens. Link

I am not anti touchscreen at all…but I think I can should be for transport first and entertainment second. Also nostalgic value in something like Scout shouldn’t be too space ship like. In my humble opinion anyways.

Don’t mean to ruffle feathers or anything. I am sure what they come up with will be good.

 

[Rustic_father]

It might not be fair as I have been driving the same vehicle for 14 years and truly know where everything is by touch. I will tell a brief story of when I needed this:

I was out doing inspections on some properties and got took a wrong turn and needed to turn around. This was a fairly urban area but I saw what looked like a turn around on a lot behind a building. So I hopped the curb and sidewalk to drive back on the lot and turn around (had what looked like a road they looped a tree) once I was on the lot I realized that the ground was deep mud in fact and not dry hard ground like I thought it was (this was summer). I circled to the back of the lot and it was down hill going as I rounded the bend I saw a slope and ditch they had been hidden and instinctually I moved my hand down and turned off ESP so that I could have full power (ESP cuts throttle and can get you stuck when you need momentum) immediately I heard the transfer case lock the front axle and I was able to crawl out with power and momentum. Then I made a terrible mess of the road and had the classic sound of mud hitting my roof and windshield as I exited onto the street.

If I had to look for a “turn off ESP” function in a touchscreen I wouldn’t have had such an easy time….mind you I was wearing a suit and tie with dress shoes and had no interest in getting out.

There was also a study that shows what I think many have been talking about regarding touchscreens. Link

I am not anti touchscreen at all…but I think I can should be for transport first and entertainment second. Also nostalgic value in something like Scout shouldn’t be too space ship like. In my humble opinion anyways.

Don’t mean to ruffle feathers or anything. I am sure what they come up with will be good.

Yes I imagine if you had a vehicle for 14 years it would be like an extension of their own hand.... It is also an impressive feat to have a car for that long

The article you liked is lacking a bit of detail because it only mentioned that the study was done by a swedish website, but doesn't provide a link and doesn't say how all vehicles performed.

In my opinion some of the worst screen interfaces came in the 2010s when screens were apart of cars but touch screens were not. Car companies slapped a small screen in and made weird design choices. For example I had a 2012 bmw 1series and the menus were not logical or well laid out, and what made it worse is it only had a dial next to the shifter that controlled it. I often spent a long time just finding a simple thing like changing the time.

I think with the evolution of touch screens and larger screens it truly allowed for smarter more intuitive interfaces that made sure to follow the "three click rule".

For those unfamiliar the three click rule is a web design philosophy that attempts to ensure nothing was more than 3 clicks away from the home screen. In my old bmw that was not considered and often things were 5 clicks away.

Tesla has done a decent job of making everything within 3 clicks..... Only a few things such as putting the windshield wipers half up to change them is 4 clicks.

 

[IdahoJOAT]

My only newer vehicle would be our two Jeeps(20 and 21) and TBH it's a bit annoying how redundant the controls are.

There's the knobs and buttons, which then ALSO have haptic on the screen. Just on or the other please.

 

[Spiegelglatt]

Yes I imagine if you had a vehicle for 14 years it would be like an extension of their own hand.... It is also an impressive feat to have a car for that long

Yeah, I have owned my older 2007 Touareg 3.6 VR6 longer than I have been married (12 years) and have taken my wife to hospital for each of our four kids in in. I love that thing gotten me home in some NASTY weather. The 4 wheel drive is amazing in that thing and the lighter motor is better balanced than the heavy V8 for anything you might sink in.

Been freakishly reliable too needing practice nothing through the years and the kids love it.

We try to keep cars paid off-so tend to keep them longer once we buy them-but the 2007 I plan on keeping at all costs forever if I can. Anyways shoutout to VW on that thing it is a forever beast.

Also I noticed the link I sent missed the meat…I had originally found a better site then it wanted money or registration to keep reading…a quick internet search will give you different articles on this…I just picked one.

 

[R1TVT]

I absolutely love the interface and infotainment screens (2 of them) in the R1T. The reality is that once you get going, the only buttons you ever really need are on the steering wheel. They provide everything you need for stereo, cruise, and Driver + which is essentially self driving. The one button that feels like it should be more burly is the drive mode button on the stalk. For a truck, this feels lightweight to me. Lastly, the integration to the buttons to control things like seat heat, temp, heated steering etc, are all available in the App. So, you can precondition the cabin with all of that before hitting the truck if you like. Its a useful feature for those of us in the colder regions.

 

[J Alynn]

While not a buttons and screen suggestion it is a dash suggestion. Previous Toyota Highlander had a horizontal open storage area just above the glove box and always found it useful. With several people commenting on a linear element dash design I thought this was something that would work well. It was great for passenger with sunglasses, cell phone, odds and ends, etc…. Always thought a phone charger at side of it would have been great for passenger cell phone charging. Just a thought. It was also an accent color so it added a little something to an otherwise average dash. Photo is a bit vague but it was probably 2-3” high and 16-18” long. Maybe 4-5” depth so again, not tons of room but good use of extra space

 

[ScoutScribe]

Screens are very distracting for me if they have to be used going down the road. But I'm an old geezer. I can manipulate switches well and can use them without taking my eyes off the road once I have that muscle memory of where they are. I don't think anyone can do that with a touch screen, though people who are very well accustomed can do it faster than someone like me. I'd vote for buttons but would like a programmable info screen, or a heads up display, that generally isn't manipulated while driving. Overall, though, I'm probably the last guy to ask. Me and my generation are fading out.

 

[lefty]

I agree with Walt on the tech for tech's sake comment and feel there should be a reasonable balance. I get that there's a certain expectation for tech with EVs but there is something to be said about tactile response. When I hit a button for a control I know it's been pushed. You don't get this response from a touchscreen and when wearing gloves, if you live where it's cold, you have spend too much time ensuring your input has been properly registered.
Putting too much into a touchscreen also increases the risk for a single point of failure. I have UConnect in my Jeep and there have been times when the screen just freezes up for a while. I don't want that happening when it's 5 degrees outside and I'm expected to use the same screen to control the heat.
I am also not in love with the user experience from merging manual and tech, like BMW and their armrest wheel. You get a tactile response based on your screen selection but it's so annoying....

 

[davidjoneagency]

Here are some more ideas:
Buttons/lever

1. Headlight control
2. Parking brake
3. Lane departure warning (on/off)
4. Cruise control
5. Sunroof control

Screen

1. Safety features settings (e.g. blind spot detection, rearview camera, parking assist)
2. Weather updates and forecasts
3. Traffic updates and route suggestions
4. Fuel economy and driving statistics (e.g. mileage, fuel consumption, driving patterns)
5. Service and mechanical maintenance reminders (e.g. oil change, tire rotation, brake pad replacement)

 

[J Alynn]

Noticed something this morning while driving daughter’s Bronco. The volume control on the steering wheel is two depressed buttons side by side toward the inside edge of the steering wheel. My Acura has the volume control as a raised toggle the is top/bottom (up/down). I find the Acura way more user friendly because when gripping your wheel, moving your thumb up/down is an easier motion than a side to side push. I also don’t need to look down in the Acura because my thumb hits the toggle and I push/pull so to speak. The Bronco I looked down because I couldn’t connect my thumb to it quite as easily. Ergonomics are important even in relation to little things like that. Wondering what other have for volume control and if anyone else has ever even thought about it. Are there other physical buttons that might be better as buttons vs. toggles and side to side operation vs. up/down operation?

 

[Harris005]

Noticed something this morning while driving daughter’s Bronco. The volume control on the steering wheel is two depressed buttons side by side toward the inside edge of the steering wheel. My Acura has the volume control as a raised toggle the is top/bottom (up/down). I find the Acura way more user friendly because when gripping your wheel, moving your thumb up/down is an easier motion than a side to side push. I also don’t need to look down in the Acura because my thumb hits the toggle and I push/pull so to speak. The Bronco I looked down because I couldn’t connect my thumb to it quite as easily. Ergonomics are important even in relation to little things like that. Wondering what other have for volume control and if anyone else has ever even thought about it. Are there other physical buttons that might be better as buttons vs. toggles and side to side operation vs. up/down operation?

I like when the volume button is on the back, right side of the steering wheel, and the next/seek buttons is on the back, left side of the steering wheel. Easy to find with index and middle finger while driving.

Regarding the ergonomics statement, one other thing that drives me crazy when I hop in my wife's car is the added lever/switches on the right side of the steering column for front and back windshield wipers/sprayers. Most every vehicle I've driven has that on the left side and is a simple turn of a knob on the end for the front windshield wiper options, while the rear options can be found on the dash. It never fails in the wife's car I go to turn on the front wipers and end up turning on the back....or I have to stare at it to remember how to spray the back. Fair to poke fun saying operator error on my part....annoying non the less.