Okay, so we’re talking about a solution (in this case) that offers articulation and lift and to correct this? Do I have it right now?
More lift, less lift, or just right.
- Thread starter Mousehunter
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I don't know about air springs, but more traditional air bags were used in some trucks to compensate for payload. In theory, you could keep the stock springs lighter (like on a 1/2 ton), but you could air up to carry a full load on a 3/4 ton (maybe even a 1 ton) without the back of the truck drooping too much. I have personal experience that a 1/2 ton has a much better ride than a 3/4 ton. I am not a fan of air bags for off road, but could see them useful on a vehicle that does not carry a load often, but is wanted to carry a load occasionally. That said, they are always going to be another point of failure.
Coil over springs can do some of the same - accept that their preload would usually be adjusted manually. But they do get rid of a failure system.
Articulation is also a sway bar issue. Various things have been done to address this - with multiple rate sway bars, and sway bar disconnects. Sway bars create additional resistance to tires moving independently. Some argue that some sway bar connection is always useful for traction control - but being able to lock down the sway bar for on road cornering, while disconnecting it largely for off road articulation is a good thing. Some people have gone to a pair of concentric sway bars - so the heavier outer bar can be unlocked, while keeping the inner, lighter bar locked. I seem to recall the Rubicon does something like this, but I could be completely incorrect.
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My LJ's lift gave me a couple of inches more articulation as it is currently installed. I could do some significant modifications to it, which would help with both the shock functions and get me 2x articulation in the rear. Might give me a little more articulation in the front as well. As part of that final modification, I would be gaining room for much nicer shocks, with a much improved geometry for the shocks in the rear at the same time. Sadly, it is probably a $10k modification. My LJ would have more $$$ in it than a base Rubicon.
Coil over springs can do some of the same - accept that their preload would usually be adjusted manually. But they do get rid of a failure system.
Articulation is also a sway bar issue. Various things have been done to address this - with multiple rate sway bars, and sway bar disconnects. Sway bars create additional resistance to tires moving independently. Some argue that some sway bar connection is always useful for traction control - but being able to lock down the sway bar for on road cornering, while disconnecting it largely for off road articulation is a good thing. Some people have gone to a pair of concentric sway bars - so the heavier outer bar can be unlocked, while keeping the inner, lighter bar locked. I seem to recall the Rubicon does something like this, but I could be completely incorrect.
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My LJ's lift gave me a couple of inches more articulation as it is currently installed. I could do some significant modifications to it, which would help with both the shock functions and get me 2x articulation in the rear. Might give me a little more articulation in the front as well. As part of that final modification, I would be gaining room for much nicer shocks, with a much improved geometry for the shocks in the rear at the same time. Sadly, it is probably a $10k modification. My LJ would have more $$$ in it than a base Rubicon.
Articulation is a bit of a rat hole topic, and I don’t know if this the right place for it. But yes, many things affect it, including sway bar (disconnects are amazing), and the axle design (solid axles usually have more articulation, but sacrifice ride quality at speed).
All I’m trying to say is that air springs and adjustable ride height usually ride the worst at the maximum height. The springs are all pumped up, and have less travel left/are stiffer.
It’s similar in concept to a bike tire in some way. If you pump them up a bunch, the ride gets worse, as the tire has less ability to “give” because it is “too firm”.
All this is from reading/observing. I’ve never had full air suspension. I’ve had air bag add on trucks (for supporting additional weight), but not proper air suspension. But I’ve watched a number of off-roading videos where it’s mentioned (across multiple vehicles), and a few forum references/comments. So if anyone else that owns a vehicle with air springs (R1T anyone?) can verify this, it would be great.
All I’m trying to say is that air springs and adjustable ride height usually ride the worst at the maximum height. The springs are all pumped up, and have less travel left/are stiffer.
It’s similar in concept to a bike tire in some way. If you pump them up a bunch, the ride gets worse, as the tire has less ability to “give” because it is “too firm”.
All this is from reading/observing. I’ve never had full air suspension. I’ve had air bag add on trucks (for supporting additional weight), but not proper air suspension. But I’ve watched a number of off-roading videos where it’s mentioned (across multiple vehicles), and a few forum references/comments. So if anyone else that owns a vehicle with air springs (R1T anyone?) can verify this, it would be great.
Perhaps there are more advanced systems these days that I am not aware of, but all of my observations agree with what you’ve said here. I’ve used air bags on my tow vehicles before and they are incredibly useful for towing and carrying heavy loads, but ride terrible when unloaded. Definitely not the same as a true air suspension, but maybe some of it relates. Anyway, over the years I’ve seen several examples where air suspension may give needed height/clearance but at the same time it decreased articulation and caused the ride to be less desirable. The air systems I am aware of seem to perform more poorly off road when compared to more traditional setups.
The 2014 Grand Cherokee Overland I had with air suspension was very stiff at max height (fully inflated). But, the top speed was also limited to about 15mph. But, in the lower settings it road great. FYI, I never had any trouble with it. My younger brother has it now and has also never had any trouble with it. I know that is not the norm. But, if Jeep can do, Scout certainly can especially with what will be 12-13 years more technological advance.
Agreed! Do you think it could be used to make an off road vehicle highly capable off road? It seems possible to me, but unfortunately I haven’t seen an air suspension outperform traditional suspension just yet.
When I mention capability, I guess what I’m saying is that I am hoping Scout Motors had the Wrangler JL and Bronco in their pool of benchmarks. I have not come across anything on this forum yet that indicates which vehicles they benchmarked.
I think the current air suspension offerings are a versatility option. Think Land Rover, Grand Cherokee Trailhawk, G Wagen. Those are very capable, all around vehicles. But, they are not dedicated desert racers, rock crawlers, or mud dominators. Air suspension allows for variable ride height and capability on a variety of terrains. It is not a specialist option for off-road. Could it be built that way? Maybe??? I think if you are interested in a primarily off-road spec suspension it will be a more traditional spring and specialized shock set up.
I think the Wrangler and Bronco were in the benchmark pool. But, I think vehicles like the Defender, Rivian R1 siblings, G Wagen, Grand Cherokee, 4Runner, Land Cruiser were also in the pool. The Scout historically and now are not exactly the same as the Jeep CJ or 1st gen Bronco. The Scout always had more versatility. I personally think that is the same now. The new Scout has similar off road capability to the Wrangler and Bronco, but is way more civilized on the road. I do think that Scout will develop a smaller, more offroad oriented model in a few years that competes directly with the Wrangler and Bronco.
I have to agree with everything you’ve mentioned here. I agree the current air suspensions are more about versatility than focused capability. Personally I’m interested in as much capability as possible as I intend to use it, so I’m hoping they’ll make room to meet the expectations of a few different groups via different trims/options. I also really hope the Wrangler and Bronco did end up in with the benchmarks, otherwise I fear the capability will be too soft for my intended use. The only saving grace at that point would be the aftermarket, however they usually take a couple of years to really churn out anything meaningful and Scout Motors would also need to design with an aftermarket friendly mindset in order for it to become viable at some point years after launch.
I do know for a fact that they have invited the usual suspects in the aftermarket to get a look at all things Scout. They intend to be as aftermarket friendly as possible, as soon as possible. Now, this part is my opinion, but I suspect that there will be Scout specific aftermarket products offered through Scout's ordering process and at their experience facilities.
I love this! Hopefully they’ll have specific aftermarket-partnered options like you mentioned that can be selected when ordering AND hopefully the designs will be aftermarket-friendly for further customization after purchase. That would be a winning combo. It really helps draw people in and helps nurture brand loyalty as well as enthusiasm. I believe it was also mentioned that Scout Motors will be at SEMA 2025, which is also a very good sign.
For one, Scott Keogh mentioned that the factory flares are easily removable to put wider aftermarket flares on.
Very smart! Having a platform that is mod-friendly is another way to build and maintain enthusiasm!!! It is awesome to see SM heading that direction.
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