Make optional equipment truly optional, and not trim level dependent.

[JSanti9]

PLEASE allow the equipment to be truly option based and not based on trim levels. Too often manufacturers gatekeep the practical equipment to more luxurious trim levels, which justify a huge price increase, but remove the vehicle from the accessibility of the consumers that could maybe justify spending/afford a $60k vehicle, but simply could not for a $90k one. If an individual who wants to use this vehicle for work or hobbies has to spend $30k more on a luxury trim level to get an option that’s only $5k, it could make the vehicle completely inaccessible to the consumer base in that price range. It is also completely redundant because that consumer base is interested in practicality. For instance, if an individual wants a simple vehicle and would opt for equipment such as power outlets, towing equipment, or particular drivetrain options, but has to spend additionally on things like leather seats, electronic lift gates or driving aids or parking brakes etc, or special suspension, all of a sudden that individual is spending so much extra money on a vehicle that completely defeats the purpose the buyer originally had, which is to have a practical vehicle with as few things to break as possible. As an automotive technician who works on a high volume of brand new luxury vehicles, I cannot express how often I repair such luxury items such as these, which often times render a particular function of the vehicle useless such as a lift gate being stuck closed, parking brakes stuck on, or constant warning chimes on the gauge cluster. I understand that the business model for gatekeeping options to higher trim levels to inflate the price is usually more profitable, and that this request will likely fall on deaf ears, but this sentiment represents the situation that I find myself in, and many other enthusiasts like me. If there is any chance this vehicle can be done differently as a ground up platform, it would become likely the most successful new EV/hybrid on the market, and definitely the most significant.

 

[MountainDad]

I agree with this - while I recognize packaging options for trim levels makes it easy for dealers to keep stock on hand and it reduces production cost, I would like an option to order the exact configuration that I want, with only the features I want.

I will not pay extra for this level of customization, however.

 

[CarTechGeek]

Similar request before:

https://scoutmotors.community.forum/threads/base-model-option-lockout-avoidance.1149/

I get the sentiment, but there is no free lunch. Upselling trims/packages is in part how they make vehicles profitable.

If they don't they would need to raise base prices to compensate.

Is there car company that doesn't do this?

 

[MountainDad]

Similar request before:

https://scoutmotors.community.forum/threads/base-model-option-lockout-avoidance.1149/

I get the sentiment, but there is no free lunch. Upselling trims/packages is in part how they make vehicles profitable.

If they don't they would need to raise base prices to compensate.

Is there car company that doesn't do this?

I certainly am not saying they should not pre-package trim levels - as you note, they have to for unit economics to close.

I would just like a means to allow for custom ordering of the exact configuration I really want. I'd probably be OK waiting several months for the order to be fulfilled - I had to wait 5 months for my Land Rover, but 3 weeks of that was on a boat through the Panama Canal.

 

[J Alynn]

I certainly am not saying they should not pre-package trim levels - as you note, they have to for unit economics to close.

I would just like a means to allow for custom ordering of the exact configuration I really want. I'd probably be OK waiting several months for the order to be fulfilled - I had to wait 5 months for my Land Rover, but 3 weeks of that was on a boat through the Panama Canal.

I’m fully on board. The work in the building industry and every custom item takes time for processing and order fulfillment. I realize a house is way more complex and choices are 10-fold but you can’t expect a custom option without additional cost. If that’s your take SM will just double the price of those stand alone items and then we all pay more. I’ve said multiple times I’d pay a premium, call it a cover charge to get into the back room and have access to the “good stuff”. But wanting for free is a little unrealistic.
If we all stated we are willing to pay a premium cover then maybe SM would consider.
They made it fairly clear that at launch the new vehicles will be semi-packaged to allow production to ramp up successfully. Getting custom would be months if not years down the road once production is flowing, sales are strong and profitable and sales tracking can justify take rates on upgrades to justify custom.

 

[MountainDad]

I’m fully on board. The work in the building industry and every custom item takes time for processing and order fulfillment. I realize a house is way more complex and choices are 10-fold but you can’t expect a custom option without additional cost. If that’s your take SM will just double the price of those stand alone items and then we all pay more. I’ve said multiple times I’d pay a premium, call it a cover charge to get into the back room and have access to the “good stuff”. But wanting for free is a little unrealistic.
If we all stated we are willing to pay a premium cover then maybe SM would consider.
They made it fairly clear that at launch the new vehicles will be semi-packaged to allow production to ramp up successfully. Getting custom would be months if not years down the road once production is flowing, sales are strong and profitable and sales tracking can justify take rates on upgrades to justify custom.

I'll ask for the ability to fully customize for free. Most people will be fine choosing pre-configured packages so they can get their vehicles quicker. That's fine. Few will actually customize after the first year anyway.

If they decide they need to charge for the privilege, I'll decide whether it's valuable to me. Lots of other choices out there. But the ante is, no extra charge for full customization from among the list of available options and colors - not talking paint-to-sample or custom graphics or unique gear like a rear-end winch or something.

For first-year pre-orders, it would be great if this was the default - they could then use the sample data to determine what option packs make the most sense, as orders will likely tend to cluster around certain configurations.

 

[Scoutsie]

I'll ask for the ability to fully customize for free. Most people will be fine choosing pre-configured packages so they can get their vehicles quicker. That's fine. Few will actually customize after the first year anyway.

If they decide they need to charge for the privilege, I'll decide whether it's valuable to me. Lots of other choices out there. But the ante is, no extra charge for full customization from among the list of available options and colors - not talking paint-to-sample or custom graphics or unique gear like a rear-end winch or something.

For first-year pre-orders, it would be great if this was the default - they could then use the sample data to determine what option packs make the most sense, as orders will likely tend to cluster around certain configurations.

I have no idea how many orders have been placed, how a car assembly line works beyond the general idea that I have from watching shows like How Stuff Works, how hard it truly is to implement custom work by diverting X vehicles off of a line that need to have blah blah blah work done instead of blah blah blah work, but how hard can this be to undertake, seriously? Even with automation. Is there something that I am really, really ignorant of about manufacturing processes that are like nope, uh uh, this is absolutely not doable because it can’t be done at all or done well with the existing processes, or nobody wants to do it because it’s a pain in the ass and introduces a greater potential for error, etc.?

 

[J Alynn]

It comes down to time and risk by employees (now you need an employee to manage this work) and most unique items need to happen off main line so now it’s a specialized position
For example:
A 16 foot garage door costs $1600
(2) 8 foot doors costs $2200
If a house is designed with two 8’ doors and somebody wants a single 16’ door the builder has to adjust the plans (minor inconvenience). The single door actually uses less beams, trim and only one motor and controller but a builder will charge $700-$1200 more even though it costs less. There is risk of mis-ordering, delay in product, etc….
Not saying it can’t be done but in a manufacturing environment it won’t be done for free. Every item will come with a larger mark up and surely the order/build process will be extended

 

[Scoutsie]

It comes down to time and risk by employees (now you need an employee to manage this work) and most unique items need to happen off main line so now it’s a specialized position
For example:
A 16 foot garage door costs $1600
(2) 8 foot doors costs $2200
If a house is designed with two 8’ doors and somebody wants a single 16’ door the builder has to adjust the plans (minor inconvenience). The single door actually uses less beams, trim and only one motor and controller but a builder will charge $700-$1200 more even though it costs less. There is risk of miss ordering, delay in product, etc….
Not saying it can’t be done but in a manufacturing environment it won’t be done for free. Every item will come with a larger mark up and surely the order/build process will be extended

I mean, I get that, but in the context of car manufacturing, if I decided that I wanted the same vehicle with all of the same options as the top-tier option package except that top tier has leather seats and I want cloth seats because leather is a pain in the ass to clean, and someone else has the same request about the seats but they want them in the other color option, is it so disruptive financially and logistically to the assembly process to make these changes that it’s not worth it at all?

I guess my question is if designing the process to accommodate these variables (chair fiber type as an example) worthwhile? I’m assuming not because it would probably be happening for more people and not just, like, Bentley owners if it was (where there’s a smaller volume of orders but custom builds are no problem for wealthy clients). I mean, any and everything is possible when you’ve got the money to throw at it.

 

[J Alynn]

I mean, I get that, but in the context of car manufacturing, if I decided that I wanted the same vehicle with all of the same options as the top-tier option package except that top tier has leather seats and I want cloth seats because leather is a pain in the ass to clean, and someone else has the same request about the seats but they want them in the other color option, is it so disruptive financially and logistically to the assembly process to make these changes that it’s not worth it at all?

I guess my question is if designing the process to accommodate these variables (chair fiber type as an example) worthwhile? I’m assuming not because it would probably be happening for more people and not just, like, Bentley owners if it was (where there’s a smaller volume of orders but custom builds are no problem for wealthy clients). I mean, any and everything is possible when you’ve got the money to throw at it.

In that scenario it’s doable but still an inconvenience for manufacturer who wants paid for that. Audi offers it but it’s a premium opportunity and costs more. Unfortunately these aren’t coach built so it’s all automation and repetition maximizes profits. Anything out of norm adds risk of failure so premium $ is applied. It’s SM opportunity to decide if it’s worth it for them and how much $$$ it’s worth to a buyer. 100% guarantee it’s not happening for free. At a minimum the individual parts will be priced as a premium.
Don’t get me wrong-for the right opportunity I’ll pay more for individual options so I’m pro-accessories but I expect to pay a 15-20 percent premium and that might be light

 

[eightOne]

Similar request before:

https://scoutmotors.community.forum/threads/base-model-option-lockout-avoidance.1149/

I get the sentiment, but there is no free lunch. Upselling trims/packages is in part how they make vehicles profitable.

If they don't they would need to raise base prices to compensate.

Is there car company that doesn't do this?

If I recall correctly, Dodge occasionally does this. They did it at the end of the hellcat with the jailbreak option.

 

[Scoutsie]

In that scenario it’s doable but still an inconvenience for manufacturer who wants paid for that. Audi offers it but it’s a premium opportunity and costs more. Unfortunately these aren’t coach built so it’s all automation and repetition maximizes profits. Anything out of norm adds risk of failure so premium $ is applied. It’s SM opportunity to decide if it’s worth it for them and how much $$$ it’s worth to a buyer. 100% guarantee it’s not happening for free. At a minimum the individual parts will be priced as a premium.
Don’t get me wrong-for the right opportunity I’ll pay more for individual options so I’m pro-accessories but I expect to pay a 15-20 percent premium and that might be light

Oh yeah, I can’t imagine this is something that gets done for free. If nothing else, time is valuable and this no doubt takes time and effort… if it’s doing something that isn’t part of your normal process

I’m not sure if I’m using the right phrasing to convey what’s in my head versus what I am writing down (thanks, MS!) so I was trying to go to Google for help and came across this article in Automotive News (I have no idea if this is A Credible Trade Publication or not) and I think I am clear on why this doesn’t get done (customer satisfaction/altruism is not a motivator)

https://www.autonews.com/sponsored/why-built-order-models-are-future-automotive-industry/

If this was your operating model, though, asking for a premium to do things that you’re going to offer to everyone seems unnecessary. The extra costs of the pain-in-the-assery should be built into your pricing. I think that’s what is bothering me about the idea of paying extra for things that you’re expecting to have to accommodate in your manufacturing process on top of whatever cost there is for $thing.

 

[J Alynn]

Thinking of it a different way
You are asked to make PB&J sandwiches for a day-as many as possible as quickly as possible:
Stock ingredients are:
Bread, PB, grape jelly, strawberry jelly

Now imagine how quickly things get F’d up with requests like:

Crusts cut off
Extra mixed jelly
Extra PB, light jelly, cut in half-triangles
Crunchy PB with light jelly
PB no jelly
Light PB, no jelly with top and bottom crust cut off
Keep in mind your doing as many as possible as quickly as possible. How far into those changes/adjustments until you screw up orders. It’s all stock ingredients but the process becomes exponentially more difficult. You slow down to check orders, you mess up a few, you can’t maintain ingredients due to “less” or “extra” requests on a just-in-time supply approach. Every adjustment that isn’t just PB&J costs the company time and money.

ITS PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME !!!

Again. I’m on board and I’m happy to pay some extra cost for custom but it still costs money and every buyer shouldn’t have to pay an extra $1000 for the 5-10% that want the custom experience for no premium.

 

[CarTechGeek]

Oh yeah, I can’t imagine this is something that gets done for free. If nothing else, time is valuable and this no doubt takes time and effort… if it’s doing something that isn’t part of your normal process

I’m not sure if I’m using the right phrasing to convey what’s in my head versus what I am writing down (thanks, MS!) so I was trying to go to Google for help and came across this article in Automotive News (I have no idea if this is A Credible Trade Publication or not) and I think I am clear on why this doesn’t get done (customer satisfaction/altruism is not a motivator)

https://www.autonews.com/sponsored/why-built-order-models-are-future-automotive-industry/

If this was your operating model, though, asking for a premium to do things that you’re going to offer to everyone seems unnecessary. The extra costs of the pain-in-the-assery should be built into your pricing. I think that’s what is bothering me about the idea of paying extra for things that you’re expecting to have to accommodate in your manufacturing process on top of whatever cost there is for $thing.

BTO vs BTS doesn't really change package/trims for two reasons:

1: Upselling higher trims. If some feature you want is in a higher tier trim with options you don't care about they may be able to entice to higher tier (more profitable) trim level. Buyers may not like it, but the whole point of companies is to maximize profit. In the car business, survival often depends on making extra profit from upselling higher cost trim levels.

2: Production efficiency. They will want to essentially be building something like 5 or 6 different cars, that way they can run batches of identical cars which is much more efficient than a hundred different combinations, that change for every car that goes through production. That latter is obviously much less efficient, and more expensive.

BTO vs BTS is just whether you pick one the 5 car trims from stock or order it. Picking from stock more often just means they don't have the package, with the color you want, or if you want a less popular package they might not have it at all.

 

[eightOne]

An additional side of this for traditional manufacturers is quick order packages for dealerships. We won’t have to deal with that, so that’s at least one less barrier to entry for BTO.

You’re definitely right in that the packages and trim level options makes things more cost-efficient and easier to upsell for the manufacturer. One annoying recent example of this is the 250 Land Cruiser headlights. They made a big show of the headlights being modular and able to swap/choose between the rounds and the bars but still haven’t offered the rounds as an option or retrofit for the Land Cruiser trim. They paywalled those into the First Edition trim package. Even within the packages available in the Land Cruiser trim, you can’t get the uprated sound system and tech without also getting a sunroof.

 

[Scoutsie]

Thinking of it a different way
You are asked to make PB&J sandwiches for a day-as many as possible as quickly as possible:
Stock ingredients are:
Bread, PB, grape jelly, strawberry jelly

Now imagine how quickly things get F’d up with requests like:

Crusts cut off
Extra mixed jelly
Extra PB, light jelly, cut in half-triangles
Crunchy PB with light jelly
PB no jelly
Light PB, no jelly with top and bottom crust cut off
Keep in mind your doing as many as possible as quickly as possible. How far into those changes/adjustments until you screw up orders. It’s all stock ingredients but the process becomes exponentially more difficult. You slow down to check orders, you mess up a few, you can’t maintain ingredients due to “less” or “extra” requests on a just-in-time supply approach. Every adjustment that isn’t just PB&J costs the company time and money.

ITS PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME !!!

Again. I’m on board and I’m happy to pay some extra cost for custom but it still costs money and every buyer shouldn’t have to pay an extra $1000 for the 5-10% that want the custom experience for no premium.

Fair analogy, but what if you told the sandwich recipients that you weren’t going to handle some of these requests? If everything is being communicated clearly and time outs are built in so that you’re positive that you didn’t just operate on the wrong leg, so to speak, that could remove some of the risk for error. I am seriously not trying to be contrarian, just trying to think about how this works efficiently. And you’re right, it’s probably going to be a thing where you have to pick two among “fast, good, cheap.” Nobody does things for free when they can charge for it.

Alas. Had to try.

 

[J Alynn]

Fair analogy, but what if you told the sandwich recipients that you weren’t going to handle some of these requests? If everything is being communicated clearly and time outs are built in so that you’re positive that you didn’t just operate on the wrong leg, so to speak, that could remove some of the risk for error. I am seriously not trying to be contrarian, just trying to think about how this works efficiently. And you’re right, it’s probably going to be a thing where you have to pick two among “fast, good, cheap.” Nobody does things for free when they can charge for it.

Alas. Had to try.

I appreciate the duel sided responses. You could limit items but WHICH? Which customers do you piss off by excluding their needs/wants? The easier answer is allow all (some are easy and some are a hassle. Hence adding a 20-30% premium to justify the PITA factor. Problem is you offer all or none or you alienate a segment of buyers.

 

[Scoutsie]

I appreciate the duel sided responses. You could limit items but WHICH? Which customers do you piss off by excluding their needs/wants? The easier answer is allow all (some are easy and some are a hassle. Hence adding a 20-30% premium to justify the PITA factor. Problem is you offer all or none or you alienate a segment of buyers.

It’s hard. I’ve been excited to see things where I’m told I can customize a thing and then find out that the aspects of the thing that I can customize are limited and kind of suck and not the things that I’d want to have control over, like “Choose from either Comic Sans or Papyrus for ‘World’s Best Chef’ on your custom apron!” when I wanted to write my own text or choose the fabric or something. Then it’s like well, why bother? I’ll just go get an apron elsewhere, you deceitful monsters.

Someone else can make this decision and tell me about it when it’s made so I can be happy that it’s quite doable or angry that it’s out of reach.

 

[J Alynn]

It’s hard. I’ve been excited to see things where I’m told I can customize a thing and then find out that the aspects of the thing that I can customize are limited and kind of suck and not the things that I’d want to have control over, like “Choose from either Comic Sans or Papyrus for ‘World’s Best Chef’ on your custom apron!” when I wanted to write my own text or choose the fabric or something. Then it’s like well, why bother? I’ll just go get an apron elsewhere, you deceitful monsters.

Someone else can make this decision and tell me about it when it’s made so I can be happy that it’s quite doable or angry that it’s out of reach.

I get it. It took car companies 10 years to realize brown leather interior looks awesome with a dark gray exterior.
That said the SM interiors team absolutely nailed the interiors. Now they need to fight for the next two years to keep it all-even if it is an upgrade.

 

[JSanti9]

I’m happy to see more people sharing the same sentiment, while I definitely hope they allow for true comprehensive customization for ordering, I do really hope they just take this into consideration when creating the different trim levels and actually separate the functional equipment from the luxury items so that even the premade packages would allow for someone to not need one to get the other.