Speculation Alert - possible Harvester Engine Choices
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And you would be INCORRECT in this case also.
Particularly, since you would not be going anywhere with an exhausted battery... The Harvester RE gas generator is powering the battery (for the 25th time) according to Scout Motors (not according to me).
Alas, you see the beauty of the battery powering the electric motor and turning the axles... Provided the battery does have an adequate SOC and is not "exhausted" it will crank up mountain passes, regen on the downs, and cruise on the HWY (with no performance loss like your i3 example!)
Yes, as long as the battery is charged enough, it will scoot up and down passes without any issues. Likely way, way better than most vehicles.
The implication here I believe is that the BMW i3 REX could do those things too, until the battery did not have enough charge to keep up with the energy demands at normal vehicle speeds. Which is just another way of saying the generator couldn't keep up with the energy demands (ie, it was being charged slower than it was being depleted), and then would go into "limp mode" (where charging rate and usage rate was equalized to whatever the generator could produce).
Which goes back to how are they going to design it. It could easily be "the generator cannot fill the battery as fast as it is being used". Or it could be "the generator can fill the battery as fast as its being used". Both can achieve give us the 500 mile range that was advertised, they just go about it differently, and imply different things on a road trip (are you charging, or filling with gas, or both).
The presentation said that the Scouts are 85% complete. I imagine what we're discussing is in the remaining 15%. All we really know at this point is that a EREV version is coming.
1: I guarantee it won't actually work that way.
2: Even if it did, that does not change the power requirements (actually it would make it worse because of extra losses from needless energy conversions).
If they use an inadequate 30 KW Generator, you will hit the wall when you run out of battery. There is no magic way to connect it so that won't happen.
When the battery can no long contribute to maintaining current speeds, it will slow down, just like the BMW i3 Rex did climbing long grades or facing strong headwinds.
Is it safe to assume the BMW i3 REX limp mode could have been avoided if charged at a charger until X percentage? Admittedly I don’t know much about them other than it’s really the only range extended vehicle on the market to pull experience from.
So if the Harvester generator engine isn’t powerful enough to keep up with recharge of the battery and its discharge rate couldn’t limp mode be avoided by doing a quick charge at a Supercharger? In essence I feel like that might defeat the purpose of a range extender though. So I have to have faith that Scout Motors will realize all of this and give us an engine that can keep up.
The generator produces electricity. It doesn't necessarily go to the battery. It goes to where load is, be it the charge controller or the engine. This is how electrons work. People don't understand basic physics.
Having been at the event, as of the moment at that time it was clearly stated the wheels are ONLY being run by electric. Could that change tomorrow-SURE. Does that help out or would @Jamie@ScoutMotors stating it be more beneficial.
Trust me-at the reveal it was the elephant in the room and while vague in getting answers to HOW it will all come together, they were clear that electric drives the wheels, not gas/generator
I don’t think anyone is saying that the wheels will be driven by anything but electricity but there is definitely a lack of understanding about how a series hybrid works based on the ones that have been built to date. Especially how the battery works. It never goes to empty. The basic mode is EV until The battery goes down to some state of charge ( determined by the software) and then the generator comes on to maintain that state of charge.
Absolutely, and this is presupposing an inadequate generator, which is FAR from a given IMO.
I think it would be a mistake to have an inadequate (for highway speed) generator.
Makes sense, and I noticed that while watching the event.
But the vibe I got watching was trying to clarify that there were no driveshafts, or other direct physical connections between the gas engine and the wheels. I personally thought they were trying to really make it clear that this was not a normal PHEV with lots of battery life. But rather a Serial hybrid.
IMO when they said they were driving the motors with electricity, that was ambiguous, as it doesn't really specify where the electricity is coming from (either battery, or generator, both could accurately be said to be providing electricity to the motor.).
Do you mean batteries? That was the argument.
Of course electricity is driving the wheels. The wheels have no physical connection the gas engine. The gas engine is merely a generator.
The point of contention, is that some (very few) are claiming that: Even when the generator is outputting power, that power cannot be used to drive Electric Traction motors, because only the batteries can provide power to the wheels.
That doesn't make sense.
The generator exists to provide the power the batteries can't, over the long haul.
If they had a 30 KW generator, and all the generator could do is charge the batteries. It would do nothing to aid your driving down the road. You would have to periodically stop, have the generator charge the batteries for a while. Then drive for a while on the batteries only, then stop charge the batteries for a while, repeat... It would be like carrying a separate Honda Generator, that could only work while stopped.
In reality the generator lets you drive continuously because it will directly supply its generated electricity to the traction motors. It may have some additional charging capabilities, but supplying electricity to the wheel motors is Job #1.
I’m hopeful the harvester engine/generator can supply sufficient charge so I can mount a few rotopax fuel jugs and go overlanding.
Exactly this for me as well - but need full electric performance for tow capability, speed, etc.
This is the architecture of what they are calling a Range Extended BEV. It is NOT the same as a hybrid. The RED line does not exist in this RE-BEV set-up, and therefore, direct "wheel turning" power is not possible, as there will be no physical connection sending energy directly to the drive motor. In order to power the drive motor directly, it would need to bypass the battery pack, at which point it would no longer offer charging capabilities.
No one thinks there is a physical conneciton.
But the red line path for electricity does exist, except it's running through computer controlled power electronics that will portion out exactly how much goes to the wheel motors, and how much to the battery. It can be any where from 0-100% to the battery, and 0-100% to the Wheels, as required (obviously the both add up to 100%).
Every Series Hybrid (which this is), plug in or not, has this capability. This one will be no different.
In a series hybrid like this, to work correctly you MUST be able to portion how much generator power goes to the wheels, and how much will charge the battery, it also must be able to blend exactly the desired mix of power from the both the generator an the battery to power the wheels to preserve the battery charge.
To only power the wheels from the battery, and only use the Generator as a battery charger, would be a hopelessly crippled design. No one ever did this, and no one ever will.
Having a "path" through computer still requires a physical connection, and those computer systems hang off of the batteries. You cannot isolate the computer, or electric motor from the battery and still have a path to the generator, so, not direct path.
As for other "series hybrids" - The Ram REV, the BMW i3REx, the Fisker Karma, the Mazda MX-30 R-EV all have propulsion from battery ONLY. So yes, it has been done, and others "will." In all of these, the ICE ONLY charges the battery.
And a true hybrid, like the nearly ancient Prius, has the capability that either the ICE or Electic Motors, or both can directly power the wheels. In the Hybrid, the ICE does not generate power to charge the battery. The ICE and Electic Motor work TOGETHER to provide propulsion. This is NOT a BEV... which both the Scout Terra and Scout Traveler are. A BEV has propulsion EXCLISIVELY from the electric motors powered by stored energy in battery packs only - hence the acronym BEV - Battery Electric Vehicle.
This is why the industry is starting to use specific names/acronyms: A HYBRID can use both propulsion systems working together, A BEV (which include range extended BEVs like Scout) is electric motor (from battery) only, and a PHEV has two separate propulsion systems that work independently from one another, relies primarily on ICE and battery power is secondary.
As for other "series hybrids" - The Ram REV, the BMW i3REx, the Fisker Karma, the Mazda MX-30 R-EV all have propulsion from battery ONLY. So yes, it has been done, and others "will." In all of these, the ICE ONLY charges the battery.
And a true hybrid, like the nearly ancient Prius, has the capability that either the ICE or Electic Motors, or both can directly power the wheels. In the Hybrid, the ICE does not generate power to charge the battery. The ICE and Electic Motor work TOGETHER to provide propulsion. This is NOT a BEV... which both the Scout Terra and Scout Traveler are. A BEV has propulsion EXCLISIVELY from the electric motors powered by stored energy in battery packs only - hence the acronym BEV - Battery Electric Vehicle.
This is why the industry is starting to use specific names/acronyms: A HYBRID can use both propulsion systems working together, A BEV (which include range extended BEVs like Scout) is electric motor (from battery) only, and a PHEV has two separate propulsion systems that work independently from one another, relies primarily on ICE and battery power is secondary.
This is 100% Wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
The i3 Rex for instance, won't let you start the Generator, until the battery is essentially dead. At which point essentially all the power is coming from the Generator, because the battery has nothing left to supply, so propulsion is coming from the generator power.
The Fisker Karma for instance, can actually supply MUCH more power (the car is significantly faster) when running the generator, than when running on batteries alone, even when the batteries have 100% charge. So some generator power going directly to the motors, is the only way that is possible.
There are other Series Hybrids like Nissan E-Power that don't plug in, that only have tiny ( ~1KWh) batteries, so most of the power has to be supplied by the generator, pretty much all the time.
It's an absolute necessity that series hybrid designs can power the wheels directly from the generator, for every one that has existed. In all series hybrids, when the generator is running most of the power is going directly to the wheel motors, they might have some specific charging modes, but Job #1 is sending power to the wheel motors.
It's unfortunate that the presentation was worded in such a way, that it's contributing to propagating myths about how Series hybrids work.
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You can start the BMW i3 REx even if the main battery is dead, but it requires a specific procedure. Starting the engine doesn't mean you're driving on the engine. Here are the steps from BMW to manually start the REx motor:
So if you have ZERO battery (ie, not even the 12v starter) it's dead. Once you start it, it STILL isn't propelling the car - it's immediately sending charge to the battery, which in turn, propels the car. And Sorry, if you want the Fisker performance? You're in PHEV mode. That establishes that red line. It's still a PHEV not BEV. The Ram REV drops the front motor to sacrifice performance for range. Disconnecting the front motor is eliminating that red line. It's one or the other. You can't have both at once. Scout has said over and over - they are BOTH BEVs - one with an extender.
Open the back tailgate of the car.
Turn on the car and make sure it is in park.
Press the accelerator and then pump the brake three times, holding it down on the third time.
Release the accelerator and press the start button.
This will start the REx motor, which can help charge the battery to allow you to drive the car.
If the 12V accessory battery is dead, you might need to jump-start it first.
So if you have ZERO battery (ie, not even the 12v starter) it's dead. Once you start it, it STILL isn't propelling the car - it's immediately sending charge to the battery, which in turn, propels the car. And Sorry, if you want the Fisker performance? You're in PHEV mode. That establishes that red line. It's still a PHEV not BEV. The Ram REV drops the front motor to sacrifice performance for range. Disconnecting the front motor is eliminating that red line. It's one or the other. You can't have both at once. Scout has said over and over - they are BOTH BEVs - one with an extender.
There is no difference in how a Fisker Karma is connected, is exactly the same as the others including the Harvester. There is no physical connection to from the gas engine to the wheels. It's just a generator, the same as all the others.
It's all just power routing, under computer control, that will direct power electronics to precisely control the power split between wheel motors and batteries.
It would be poorly engineered (to vastly understate it) it all the generator could do is charge the batteries, it would very limited in operational modes, and needlessly inefficient.
Converting Electrical power into Chemical storage introduces losses (charging a battery). You get additional losses when convert back to electrical power. So you just introduced two energy conversion losses that could have been avoided by sending generator power directly to the wheel motors(which is what actually happens).
Again, unfortunate, that marketing seemed to want to dumb down the presentation, which gives an incorrect impression how this works.
I keep telling myself to not look at this thread anymore but I guess I'm a masochist. Just think about it from an efficiency standpoint. What do you think is the most EFFICIENT use of electrical current:
A) Generate current -> send to battery ->store in battery ->send to motor
or
B) Generate current -> send to motor
The most efficient use of electrical current is the most likely scenario.
PS: every -> is a loss
A) Generate current -> send to battery ->store in battery ->send to motor
or
B) Generate current -> send to motor
The most efficient use of electrical current is the most likely scenario.
PS: every -> is a loss
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