Manual Transmission

[difficulTT]

Since we are allowed to suggest anything, I'd like to suggest a manual transmission.

Now I know your saying, "but difficulTT, an electric vehicle doesn't need a transmission at all!" and I get that. but what if Scout did it anyway?

The Porsche Taycan and its stablemate the Audi RS e-tron GT has a 2 speed transmission, so there is president under the VW umbrella already.
Scout doesn't even need to have multiple physical gears, just simulate "shifting" with a clutch and stick shift. The "gears" could be programmed RPM limits of the motor, and the clutch could essentially act as a rotary dial for torque. Add in some fun touches like rev-limiter bouncing and audio cues and now we're talking! To make it authentic, there has to be a clutch petal and the ability to stall and roll back etc... otherwise it's just acting like a CVT with preprogrammed shift points.

And of course, with the push of a button, or perhaps selecting the right "gear", it goes back to full auto, like any other EV.

The single most engaging part of driving IMHO is shifting a vehicle with a clutch and stick shift. I could care less that the DSG can shift faster,
or that the auto is quicker around the track. For me, shifting myself is what makes driving.

Koenigsegg has combined a manual and automatic transmission into one with a gas powered car: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/...sion-manual-automatic-how-it-works-explained/

Ford has already toyed with the idea: https://www.motorauthority.com/news...-has-900-horsepower-and-a-manual-transmission

And now Lexus has confirmed they are working on it too: https://www.autoblog.com/2022/12/05/lexus-electrified-sports-flagship-car-manual-transmission/

This would offer another point of differentiation from the competition. Along with that removable roof, of course

 

[Eswanson]

So what you are saying is it is complicated? Not everyone will be happy no matter what is decided and I agree fully on pick a segment and do it well. Hopefully that lands where I might like it to be. If not, there will be other options.

Exactly, and part of how I was trying to say it is "it is for sure do-able but if it should be done due to cost/practicality etc..." I would love a manual trans personally but I won't cry if it doesn't happen.

 

[Rustic_father]

I am in the camp of them doing this one right... you can do it right as a competitor to the Rivian and really to $70K+ cars (really $90K+) or you can do it as something unique. Do whatever one of those you are going to do the best it can be done. Unique could be a standard transmission. You see some EV conversion companies looking to this model. You may (not the engineer, just worked on cars most my life) be able to install a standard transmission and transfer case with a smaller overall motor package to save costs, preserve historic connections, etc... It could also ruin the rig. It could make us destroy transmissions, have to re-program things, loose out on advancements in automotive tech that we will ultimately like. It will ultimately come down to factors such as price, sales estimates, the type of market they want to reach and we cannot pick that for them at this magnitude.

This is a hill that I will die on.....for cost, weight, efficiency, maintenance, and everything..... manual transmissions do not belong on EVs it is an added weight and just introducing additional components that need maintenance and are likely to break or fail or worsen efficiency.

A conversation kits are going to be a big business pretty soon but I don't think they should purposely make a converted vechicle

 

[R1TVT]

After having owned an Audi with DSG, and paddle shifters, I would say the simulation & novelty of manually shifting an EV (that provides instant, smooth torque and acceleration, and can also be modulated in a variety of different drive modes) would wear off VERY quickly. All that effort to pretend to get a feel like you are doing something mechanically (that you know is only simulated) would likely be way underutilized for the effort... I know it wore off with DSG almost instantly. Unless I wanted to hit my rev limit coming off a green light, which wasn't very often.

 

[J Alynn]

I’d challenge that based on the various types of drivers. I’ll concede that paddle shifters on a rugged SUV would likely be used less often. That said, my Acura has them, be it a performance sport sedan, but I use my paddle shifters any time I get the chance. I am referred to as a spirited driver and I accept that. I love the interaction of driving. My past three vehicles were 2 SUVs and a sport wagon. I hit a point where the driving experience of those were killing my joy of driving. Again, I don’t anticipate going down to Baja to tear through sand and dunes or pulling up to a traffic light to drag race someone (keeping the Acura for that) but I want enough interaction to enjoy the drive. I agree adding artificial shifting is just added weight but perhaps there is an in between. Maybe I need to accept an electric vehicle will be less interactive and my Acura will scratch that itch. We need to remember we are all enthusiasts about the Scout. We also have vehicle owners who are commuters and vehicle owners who are drivers-I’m the latter. Taking time to think of ways to address both types of drivers is important and at this stage in the game, with a ground up EV, I think it behooves the design team to see if there is a way to satisfy both. Just my opinion

 

[Rustic_father]

I’d challenge that based on the various types of drivers. I’ll concede that paddle shifters on a rugged SUV would likely be used less often. That said, my Acura has them, be it a performance sport sedan, but I use my paddle shifters any time I get the chance. I am referred to as a spirited driver and I accept that. I love the interaction of driving. My past three vehicles were 2 SUVs and a sport wagon. I hit a point where the driving experience of those were killing my joy of driving. Again, I don’t anticipate going down to Baja to tear through sand and dunes or pulling up to a traffic light to drag race someone (keeping the Acura for that) but I want enough interaction to enjoy the drive. I agree adding artificial shifting is just added weight but perhaps there is an in between. Maybe I need to accept an electric vehicle will be less interactive and my Acura will scratch that itch. We need to remember we are all enthusiasts about the Scout. We also have vehicle owners who are commuters and vehicle owners who are drivers-I’m the latter. Taking time to think of ways to address both types of drivers is important and at this stage in the game, with a ground up EV, I think it behooves the design team to see if there is a way to satisfy both. Just my opinion

I drag race people all the time in my Tesla. I have the regular long range and I go 0-60 in 4.2 seconds. The performance model 3 is 3.1 seconds. I drag race chargers and challengers and mustangs.

I really want to emphasize that I love manual transmissions. And EVs arnt boring.....they have quite the thrill because they have the ability to kick you into the back of your chair at an instant without having to downshift. That torque is always always there.

The main idea that I’m trying to emphasize is that EVs still have a thrill it’s just slightly different, and different isn’t worse.

 

[J Alynn]

Knowing we appear to have roughly two to three camps of people here-pro Scout, pro off-road and pro electric I have an interesting proposition for the Scout team.
I think knowing Chris is traveling to meet Scout groups the following suggestion might be worth exploring. Schedule 15-18 stops around the US where you can hit hubs of Scout enthusiasts. Plan a reasonable demo utilizing several Rivian and Wrangler X4e’s on off-road style experiences and learn from attendees what’s good, what’s bad, what EV off-reading is or can be and maybe ease the mind of many of us who are new to EV’s. Even owning a Tesla from a street/sport approach will be drastically different than an off-road capable vehicle. I realize there is a significant cost to something like this but what a way to empower your buying demographic. Just spit balling an idea. It certainly would be a great real world educational experience

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Knowing we appear to have roughly two to three camps of people here-pro Scout, pro off-road and pro electric I have an interesting proposition for the Scout team.
I think knowing Chris is traveling to meet Scout groups the following suggestion might be worth exploring. Schedule 15-18 stops around the US where you can hit hubs of Scout enthusiasts. Plan a reasonable demo utilizing several Rivian and Wrangler X4e’s on off-road style experiences and learn from attendees what’s good, what’s bad, what EV off-reading is or can be and maybe ease the mind of many of us who are new to EV’s. Even owning a Tesla from a street/sport approach will be drastically different than an off-road capable vehicle. I realize there is a significant cost to something like this but what a way to empower your buying demographic. Just spit balling an idea. It certainly would be a great real world educational experience

The hard part is that no manufacturer (yet) has a setup similar to what we are going to build. We also have some former Rivian owners/former employees hired on board, in addition to VW/Porsche/Audi engineers working on next-generation AWD EVs in the group. So apple to apples comparisons would be tough. That said, we've benchmarked all competing vehicles (at this point) as part of the process. We are waiting on the Jeep Recon, Mercedes EQG/ G-Wagon EV and Defender EV (not sure on the timing of the last one, but the Recon and EQG should be on the market before us) to also look at. We won't be pricing the Scout like the Defender or EQG, but we like to aim high on specs and bring value to the table where we can.

 

[Rustic_father]

Knowing we appear to have roughly two to three camps of people here-pro Scout, pro off-road and pro electric I have an interesting proposition for the Scout team.
I think knowing Chris is traveling to meet Scout groups the following suggestion might be worth exploring. Schedule 15-18 stops around the US where you can hit hubs of Scout enthusiasts. Plan a reasonable demo utilizing several Rivian and Wrangler X4e’s on off-road style experiences and learn from attendees what’s good, what’s bad, what EV off-reading is or can be and maybe ease the mind of many of us who are new to EV’s. Even owning a Tesla from a street/sport approach will be drastically different than an off-road capable vehicle. I realize there is a significant cost to something like this but what a way to empower your buying demographic. Just spit balling an idea. It certainly would be a great real world educational experience

I like to think that I'm in all 3 camps in varying degrees but the main difference for me is that my version of off roading is very different from others off roading....and maybe this should be a separate topic or even a poll but what kind of "off road" capabilities does everybody expect fresh out of the box?

There is a bit of confusion (maybe only by me) because everyone uses "off roading" interchangeably. Is there some kind of standard trail rating system that is universally accepted and understood?

I personally don't think it is a reasonable expectation for a stock scout to be targeted to handle a trail like the Rubicon....maybe the top of the line scout with like extreme off road packages.

I'll try to defend my position real quick....I think that trails like the Rubicon are too extreme for an every day vehicle....unless it is modified. Much like original scouts they need modification to be able to handle the extreme trails. So I think that it important that the new scout is easy to modify. That way the new scout will able to handle a lot of off roading but for those who want to go on extreme trails can modify the vehicle to make that possible.

I'm curious what everybody else's thoughts are on the topic....I know I will likely be in the minority

 

[J Alynn]

I like to think that I'm in all 3 camps in varying degrees but the main difference for me is that my version of off roading is very different from others off roading....and maybe this should be a separate topic or even a poll but what kind of "off road" capabilities does everybody expect fresh out of the box?

There is a bit of confusion (maybe only by me) because everyone uses "off roading" interchangeably. Is there some kind of standard trail rating system that is universally accepted and understood?

I personally don't think it is a reasonable expectation for a stock scout to be targeted to handle a trail like the Rubicon....maybe the top of the line scout with like extreme off road packages.

I'll try to defend my position real quick....I think that trails like the Rubicon are too extreme for an every day vehicle....unless it is modified. Much like original scouts they need modification to be able to handle the extreme trails. So I think that it important that the new scout is easy to modify. That way the new scout will able to handle a lot of off roading but for those who want to go on extreme trails can modify the vehicle to make that possible.

I'm curious what everybody else's thoughts are on the topic....I know I will likely be in the minority

I’ve clearly stated my extent of off-road needs is a heavily pot-holed dirt/gravel road where a sedan might take damage but 90% of SUV’s would survive.

 

[Chris@ScoutMotors]

Knowing we appear to have roughly two to three camps of people here-pro Scout, pro off-road and pro electric I have an interesting proposition for the Scout team.
I think knowing Chris is traveling to meet Scout groups the following suggestion might be worth exploring. Schedule 15-18 stops around the US where you can hit hubs of Scout enthusiasts. Plan a reasonable demo utilizing several Rivian and Wrangler X4e’s on off-road style experiences and learn from attendees what’s good, what’s bad, what EV off-reading is or can be and maybe ease the mind of many of us who are new to EV’s. Even owning a Tesla from a street/sport approach will be drastically different than an off-road capable vehicle. I realize there is a significant cost to something like this but what a way to empower your buying demographic. Just spit balling an idea. It certainly would be a great real world educational experience

I like this idea, and we've actually been looking into ways to do something similar. Been heads down planning over the last few weeks (hence not being too active on here) but will definitely take this back and see how a program like this may be able to fit into the schedule/budget over the next few years.

I think that once people get into modern day EV's and esperience the capabilities, what it's like to actually drive them, and some of the unique thrills they provide, as @Rustic_father mentioned, they actually get pretty stoked on them. Not to mention how they can actually make great off roaders.

 

[Harris005]

I'll try to defend my position real quick....I think that trails like the Rubicon are too extreme for an every day vehicle....unless it is modified. Much like original scouts they need modification to be able to handle the extreme trails. So I think that it important that the new scout is easy to modify. That way the new scout will able to handle a lot of off roading but for those who want to go on extreme trails can modify the vehicle to make that possible.

@Rustic_father I agree with your take here. Dare I say that most wouldn't use a brand new 50K vehicle for the more extreme trails. Howerver, making it so the aftermarket world can still give them that opertunity to do so seems to be a win for everyone. I would also maybe say if you are someone that is into extreme trails, use the New Scout to get you there with your old, modified Scout towed behind for a day on the more extreme trails.

I also am liking what @R1TVT is reporting on the air suspension in his post https://scoutmotors.community.forum/threads/ev-focused-suggestions.99/post-1936 It seems to be a very capable machine on mid-level trails, which is where most people would limit out at anyway. My two concerns with this set up are: 1) how much added cost would a suspension like this add to the base line (most want the Scout to remain affordable, unlike the Rivian)? 2) Does this system limit the upgrades one can do for more extreme trail rigs? Are there steps that the designers could take to prepare aftermarket upgrades for a trail rig setup? I believe most would say solid axles are the preferred; however, I think this is one of those "can't make everyone happy".

My personal vote - An air suspension similar to the Rivian with the adjustable ride height seems like a great set up for the types of trails I would find myself on as well as a higher level of comfort on the road (assuming I don't have to sell the families organs on the black market to help pay for it). I would also hope to still get the old Scout out and enjoy it on the trails, and if I found myself wanting to attempt some of the more challenging trails, then I would look to upgrade the old Scout for just that.

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

I personally don't think it is a reasonable expectation for a stock scout to be targeted to handle a trail like the Rubicon....maybe the top of the line scout with like extreme off road packages.

I'll try to defend my position real quick....I think that trails like the Rubicon are too extreme for an every day vehicle....unless it is modified. Much like original scouts they need modification to be able to handle the extreme trails. So I think that it important that the new scout is easy to modify. That way the new scout will able to handle a lot of off roading but for those who want to go on extreme trails can modify the vehicle to make that possible.

I'm curious what everybody else's thoughts are on the topic....I know I will likely be in the minority

We are a long way off on finalizing trim options and packages, but it is worth pointing out that it is NOT necessary (at least using some of the bypasses) to have a modified or extreme vehicle to traverse the Rubicon Trail:

Suspension details are still being sorted out, but there are several things to consider. Air suspension is a nice convenience feature when you want more ground clearance (or want the vehicle to sit a bit lower). It is quite a bit more costly both in upfront costs and maintenance down the road and more complex in terms of support systems. We haven't ruled it out, but I personally think if we were to offer it, we should have it as an option so that there is the ability to just replace the stock spring/shock setup if you like. I don't think lift kits will be an issue, either.

In all this, we also need to worry about unsprung weight, particularly if we utilize a beam axle setup with electric motors. Adding air suspension further increases unsprung weight, and we don't want to destroy the ride and handling. So everything in balance. These decisions are still being made, but the team is definitely on the same page as all of you regarding capabilities.

We are exploring all options.

 

[geekymutt]

I absolutely encourage a manual transmission for both gas and electric options.
Electric motors still have a power curve, albeit wider and flatter than most any combustion engine,but it still has one.
And lower revs should still from I understand consume less power, and produce less heat, leading to greater longevity.

 

[J Alynn]

I absolutely encourage a manual transmission for both gas and electric options.
Electric motors still have a power curve, albeit wider and flatter than most any combustion engine,but it still has one.
And lower revs should still from I understand consume less power, and produce less heat, leading to greater longevity.

I think the take rate on this would be so minimal it wouldn’t be worth the engineering and cost. While every now and then I think rowing gears would be fun again it just becomes cumbersome. I’m sure if you off road this might be appealing but the new technologies should help more as an automatic mode. nearly every manufacturer of cars has killed off manuals because nobody wants them. Sure some trucks off manual but even that is very limited. I could maybe see paddle shifters but as these are sports cars that seems like a take it/leave it option. I think this feature would just be a scope creep option that costs buyers more money for something that isn’t necessary. Just my 2 cents

 

[CarTechGeek]

I think the take rate on this would be so minimal it wouldn’t be worth the engineering and cost.

It would be completely throwing out their design and starting over, essentially building an ICE truck, minus the gas engine, creating battery placement issues, when they put in the transmission and drive shafts.

It's a complete nonstarter.

If someone wants a MT EV, they should look to the EV conversion market, where they do exist. But most people just leave them is one gear almost all the time.

 

[Scoutsie]

I absolutely encourage a manual transmission for both gas and electric options.
Electric motors still have a power curve, albeit wider and flatter than most any combustion engine,but it still has one.
And lower revs should still from I understand consume less power, and produce less heat, leading to greater longevity.

Not that it isn’t cool to have the institutional knowledge of how to be fast and furious, but I’m thinking that this is better suited for a li’l sports car. It’ll be more fun to drive, too.

 

[LastDayScout]

Not that it isn’t cool to have the institutional knowledge of how to be fast and furious, but I’m thinking that this is better suited for a li’l sports car. It’ll be more fun to drive, too.

I completely agree. It sounds like an expensive to develop novelty that is completely unnecessary. The EV platform offers maximum torque and throttle modulation off road. It is infinitely easier on the road and in traffic.

 

[MountainDad]

Since we are allowed to suggest anything, I'd like to suggest a manual transmission.

Now I know your saying, "but difficulTT, an electric vehicle doesn't need a transmission at all!" and I get that. but what if Scout did it anyway?

The Porsche Taycan and its stablemate the Audi RS e-tron GT has a 2 speed transmission, so there is president under the VW umbrella already.
Scout doesn't even need to have multiple physical gears, just simulate "shifting" with a clutch and stick shift. The "gears" could be programmed RPM limits of the motor, and the clutch could essentially act as a rotary dial for torque. Add in some fun touches like rev-limiter bouncing and audio cues and now we're talking! To make it authentic, there has to be a clutch petal and the ability to stall and roll back etc... otherwise it's just acting like a CVT with preprogrammed shift points.

And of course, with the push of a button, or perhaps selecting the right "gear", it goes back to full auto, like any other EV.

The single most engaging part of driving IMHO is shifting a vehicle with a clutch and stick shift. I could care less that the DSG can shift faster,
or that the auto is quicker around the track. For me, shifting myself is what makes driving.

Koenigsegg has combined a manual and automatic transmission into one with a gas powered car: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/...sion-manual-automatic-how-it-works-explained/

Ford has already toyed with the idea: https://www.motorauthority.com/news...-has-900-horsepower-and-a-manual-transmission

And now Lexus has confirmed they are working on it too: https://www.autoblog.com/2022/12/05/lexus-electrified-sports-flagship-car-manual-transmission/

This would offer another point of differentiation from the competition. Along with that removable roof, of course

Quite honestly, I love manual transmissions, and I grew up on them.

But I absolutely do NOT want one on an off-road vehicle. Been there, done that, and glad they have been replaced by tough Auto boxes with paddle shifters like ZF's 8HP.

I was pretty good - my factory clutches all lasted in excess of 90K miles even with hard driving (Audi A4 Sport Quattros, Subarus, etc) - but frankly on slopes of certain angles and composition, I'd just rather let the computer sort it out. It makes for a much more pleasurable and lower-risk experience.

Just outside of Red Rock NCA in Vegas, there was a small gully that had the rotting corpse of a Jeep Wrangler with a manual - the driver was attempting a slick rock climb, very steep, and as the story goes he was well experienced, but as he was slipping the clutch to modulate power, the clutch gave way - and he rolled backwards into the gully, and rolled end-over-end, coming to rest upside down. He got out alive and relatively unharmed, but the Jeep was there for years. This was ca. 2004 when I came upon it. Maybe some urban legend on the causes, but the Jeep had been there for years when I got there - almost everything that could be salvaged, had been stripped. I once drove my nearly-new 2005 Subie Outback 2.5XT 5MT up the road to the trailhead for White Mountain, NV - past the Bristlecone Pine Forest, all the way to the gate near the high altitude research station. Granted, no low range, no lockers - but that was the most rancid clutch I had ever smelled. It survived, but I wouldn't do it again, and I've done much harder stuff here in Colorado since.

Manuals are for sports cars.

 

[Chaparral]

I had to push start a manual with a flat battery many times. I guess those days are coming to an end with electric powertrains.

 

[MountainDad]

I had to push start a manual with a flat battery many times. I guess those days are coming to an end with electric powertrains.

Now you can tow-charge an EV with a flat battery.