Manual Control of 4x4 system instead of silly GOAT like modes

[CarTechGeek]

Please treat buyers like adults when it comes to controlling the subsystems when off-road.

I've always disliked mode based control like Ford "GOAT" modes (I hate them on cameras too), and this was brought home when I watched a video comparing some 2 door 4x4s. When it got the Ford, they were basically cycling through GOAT modes trying to get it to behave. If you must have modes, have one be manual, and remember you were using manual the last time...

When you push a Button for Off-road, bring up a screen with the important parameters:

1: Accelerator Pedal Mapping. This is where you are basically choosing 4 High, or 4 Low - 4 High is the normal default mode. There is no need for 2WD on an EV since there is no driveline binding. 4 Low is the important one. It drops the speed range down to about 25 MPH max, and give more fine grained crawl control. It also enables control over diff locks, and Sway bar disconnects.

2: Differential Locks. Only enabled in "4 Low".

3: Sway Bar disconnect. Only enabled in "4 Low".

4: Traction Control.

• 0 - Off - Completely Off (aside from driveline protection) - Perhaps Only in "4 low".
• 1 - cross axle Brake Torque Distribution Only - Basically this just an inferior substitute for diff lockers - not everyone will have them. large amount of spin still allowed if it's both wheels on an axle.
• 2 - Only moderate amount of spin allowed.
• 3 - Spin tightly controlled.

5: Trail Crawl Control. Allow automated slow progress mode 1-10 MPH.


IMO, this is MUCH better than a bunch of silly modes (sand, mud and ruts, rocks, etc...) that simply create mystery about what the drive systems are doing. Just let people control what they want the systems to do directly.

 

[R1TVT]

IMO, this is MUCH better than a bunch of silly modes (sand, mud and ruts, rocks, etc...) that simply create mystery about what the drive systems are doing. Just let people control what they want the systems to do directly.

Curious... Do you own an EV Truck and feel like you can't get the settings to behave the way you want them to behave, or can't combine them in way that allows your truck to operate in a certain "mode" (like the Trail Crawl Control mode you reference)? Which truck do you own?

 

[Rampy]

GOAT mode is for people who have zero experience & are just learning to those who understands the fine points of it & just don’t want to deal with what can be pre set and forgotten

I want my lockers to be available in 4H, they are quite useful even in 2H without going to 4X4 mode

4L is a torque monster, allowing you to crawl over obstacles & the real low gearing is what keeps your speed down


Traction control, on or off…it’s very simple

 

[shnngns]

Most of my off-road vehicles have been Jeeps which = no modes. The first 4x4 vehicle with modes has been my Bronco Raptor and it's been fun playing with the different modes but I also have control over what I want on or off. So if there's modes cool...but still let me retain the functionality to turn lockers etc. on or off even within those modes.

 

[shnngns]

GOAT mode is for people who have zero experience & are just learning to those who understands the fine points of it & just don’t want to deal with what can be pre set and forgotten

I want my lockers to be available in 4H, they are quite useful even in 2H without going to 4X4 mode

4L is a torque monster, allowing you to crawl over obstacles & the real low gearing is what keeps your speed down


Traction control, on or off…it’s very simple

I've seen people that STILL don't know what they're doing even with modes

 

[CarTechGeek]

I've seen people that STILL don't know what they're doing even with modes

It's not rare, almost no one knows what the modes do. The is TFLOffroad, one of the most popular off road channels on YT. They owned a long term Bronco, here they are comparing LR/Jeep/Bronco on 3 wheel slip test, he ends up cycling modes almost at random try to get forward motion. The jeep just drove off without drama:

The problems not only that people don't know what the modes do, it's that they don't offer manual control over things like Brake Force Distribution, or to enable TC in 4L.

Hence, why I would just like to have direct control, and not depending on cylcing modes, that are poorly explained, and may not even have the combination you want.

Just provide a clear manual setting for everything.

 

[J Alynn]

While I like the idea as suggested I fear one thing:
More than 50% of new cars are SUVs and I’m sure the majority of those buyers don’t understand when to use 4x4 vs 4x2 and high/low. I know my daughter had the Bronco for a bit. She was 19 and as much as I can try to educate, she’s still inexperienced in a vehicle capable of a lot. Imagine a group of teenagers deciding to drive on the beach-just imagine that nightmare (not even considering airing down tires). Family with a Traveler decided to rent a travel trailer and drive to Colorado-again-multitude of fears with that. Having a GOAT mode helps novice drivers.
Not everyone buying an SUV is taught the methods and use scenarios so my thought is offer some variation of a GOAT mode but allow for an override so the end users can change as they see fit.
SM goal is building a community and the GOAT mode opens up more opportunities for novice drivers to feel like part of the Scout community

 

[R1TVT]

Agreed, and I don't see these things as being mutually exclusive either. If you have modes that are based on a set of preferences you should be able select individual items in SETTINGS or alter some settings within a given "mode" for example. One way to think about "modes" is as a shortcut to something you might frequently use. For me, that is typically going from ALL-PURPOSE mode to SNOW MODE in my truck...

Of course the key is SW, UI and implementation with the limited ability to change your settings as you see fit (I say limited b/c sometimes there may need to be some guardrails). I don't see "rock crawl mode" with a full height setting and soft suspension with no TC being great at 80MPH flying off an exit on a HWY (for example)... Clearly you want to have some checks in place so people don't do stupid things to endanger themselves or others around them, and rock crawling should have some limits on speed.

I think its safe to say there will be many "new" EV Scout drivers, and it there is nothing wrong with experimenting with drive settings - that is just how you learn. It's might be more costly for some with children that do dumb things in daddy's land rover on a beach in Nantucket with an incoming tide for example.

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[pwrofgrayskull]

I feel like I fall somewhere in the middle of agreeing with pretty much everyone all at once. I can see how modes can definitely help those without off-road experience. The example of driving on a beach with no experience is a good one.

However, please do not limit us to those modes if you need to have them:
- If I’m in a mode, let me change any and all settings within the mode as conditions change. If I want to disconnect the sway bar or activate the front locker or turn the rear locker off, let me do it. Don’t make me struggle unnecessarily through off road sections and obstacles.
- If we must have modes, give us a manual mode as stated before. Let us set it up for the conditions we’re currently in.
- Let us set up our own custom modes that we can use for certain environments we frequent as well. For example, if I have a favorite desert or mountain trail that I run often or fish or hunt at or visit for widlife photography or smell fresh air or enjoy beautiful views or whatever the case may be - let me set up and SAVE a personalized mode or two or three.
- Please do not limit when we can use lockers or sway bar disconnect, etc. I understand the lawyers will fight this, but please recognize how incredibly useful a locker or sway bar disconnect can be outside of 4 low. Being able to use ALL of the tools outside of four wheel drive low is a big deal.

When it comes down to it, I just want to be able to control everything. I don’t want to be limited and nannied to death, please. Our litigation society has caused modern vehicles to be rolling nagging nannies unfortunately.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Agreed, and I don't see these things as being mutually exclusive either. If you have modes that are based on a set of preferences you should be able select individual items in SETTINGS or alter some settings within a given "mode" for example. One way to think about "modes" is as a shortcut to something you might frequently use. For me, that is typically going from ALL-PURPOSE mode to SNOW MODE in my truck...

Of course the key is SW, UI and implementation with the limited ability to change your settings as you see fit (I say limited b/c sometimes there may need to be some guardrails). I don't see "rock crawl mode" with a full height setting and soft suspension with no TC being great at 80MPH flying off an exit on a HWY (for example)... Clearly you want to have some checks in place so people don't do stupid things to endanger themselves or others around them, and rock crawling should have some limits on speed.

I think its safe to say there will be many "new" EV Scout drivers, and it there is nothing wrong with experimenting with drive settings - that is just how you learn. It's might be more costly for some with children that do dumb things in daddy's land rover on a beach in Nantucket with an incoming tide for example.

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Agreed. Undoubtedly there will be some guardrails in place. I just wish for guardrails within reason without cutting into capability, versatility, and user experience. It’s a tough balancing act.

 

[CarTechGeek]

While I like the idea as suggested I fear one thing:
More than 50% of new cars are SUVs and I’m sure the majority of those buyers don’t understand when to use 4x4 vs 4x2 and high/low. I know my daughter had the Bronco for a bit. She was 19 and as much as I can try to educate, she’s still inexperienced in a vehicle capable of a lot. Imagine a group of teenagers deciding to drive on the beach-just imagine that nightmare (not even considering airing down tires). Family with a Traveler decided to rent a travel trailer and drive to Colorado-again-multitude of fears with that. Having a GOAT mode helps novice drivers.
Not everyone buying an SUV is taught the methods and use scenarios so my thought is offer some variation of a GOAT mode but allow for an override so the end users can change as they see fit.
SM goal is building a community and the GOAT mode opens up more opportunities for novice drivers to feel like part of the Scout community

It's not like GOAT modes are going to make novices capable of handling tough trails. It actually might encourage them to get in over their heads.

While I don't like them, I'm not dead set against them as long as they include a manual mode as I indicated in the first post.

"If you must have modes, have one be manual, and remember you were using manual the last time..."

 

[J Alynn]

Agreed, and I don't see these things as being mutually exclusive either. If you have modes that are based on a set of preferences you should be able select individual items in SETTINGS or alter some settings within a given "mode" for example. One way to think about "modes" is as a shortcut to something you might frequently use. For me, that is typically going from ALL-PURPOSE mode to SNOW MODE in my truck...

Of course the key is SW, UI and implementation with the limited ability to change your settings as you see fit (I say limited b/c sometimes there may need to be some guardrails). I don't see "rock crawl mode" with a full height setting and soft suspension with no TC being great at 80MPH flying off an exit on a HWY (for example)... Clearly you want to have some checks in place so people don't do stupid things to endanger themselves or others around them, and rock crawling should have some limits on speed.

I think its safe to say there will be many "new" EV Scout drivers, and it there is nothing wrong with experimenting with drive settings - that is just how you learn. It's might be more costly for some with children that do dumb things in daddy's land rover on a beach in Nantucket with an incoming tide for example.

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And there’s the proof of my concerns

 

[Rampy]

I feel like I fall somewhere in the middle of agreeing with pretty much everyone all at once. I can see how modes can definitely help those without off-road experience. The example of driving on a beach with no experience is a good one.

However, please do not limit us to those modes if you need to have them:
- If I’m in a mode, let me change any and all settings within the mode as conditions change. If I want to disconnect the sway bar or activate the front locker or turn the rear locker off, let me do it. Don’t make me struggle unnecessarily through off road sections and obstacles.
- If we must have modes, give us a manual mode as stated before. Let us set it up for the conditions we’re currently in.
- Let us set up our own custom modes that we can use for certain environments we frequent as well. For example, if I have a favorite desert or mountain trail that I run often or fish or hunt at or visit for widlife photography or smell fresh air or enjoy beautiful views or whatever the case may be - let me set up and SAVE a personalized mode or two or three.
- Please do not limit when we can use lockers or sway bar disconnect, etc. I understand the lawyers will fight this, but please recognize how incredibly useful a locker or sway bar disconnect can be outside of 4 low. Being able to use ALL of the tools outside of four wheel drive low is a big deal.

When it comes down to it, I just want to be able to control everything. I don’t want to be limited and nannied to death, please. Our litigation society has caused modern vehicles to be rolling nagging nannies unfortunately.

Agree with you, thing is for beach driving people do not understand how crucial lowering air pressure in their tires actually is & how even the best 4x4 can/will get stuck in sand if they don’t lower tire air pressure

 

[Mousehunter]

Sadly education trumps modes - and honestly, if you have the education - modes are probably not only limiting but confusing.

I could easily go into a rant. EV's will get around some limitation, will impose others. I don't mind the option of modes, I hope they are understandable, and honestly would love to have a display that tells me what they are doing. Likewise, I would like easy to use manual overrides of them - I do enjoy my LJ (not remotely stock), that I have granular control over all of what is available. I can lock front or rear independently - regardless of what range I am in. I can disconnect the sway bar when I want to, not necessarily when the lawyers so I should. Blocking the lockers in 4h is kind of a pet peive of mine - my LJ does not have any of that Tom foolery.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Agree with you, thing is for beach driving people do not understand how crucial lowering air pressure in their tires actually is & how even the best 4x4 can/will get stuck in sand if they don’t lower tire air pressure

Absolutely, yes! Tire air pressure is a huge deal when off road - especially sand. I completely agree.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Sadly education trumps modes - and honestly, if you have the education - modes are probably not only limiting but confusing.

I could easily go into a rant. EV's will get around some limitation, will impose others. I don't mind the option of modes, I hope they are understandable, and honestly would love to have a display that tells me what they are doing. Likewise, I would like easy to use manual overrides of them - I do enjoy my LJ (not remotely stock), that I have granular control over all of what is available. I can lock front or rear independently - regardless of what range I am in. I can disconnect the sway bar when I want to, not necessarily when the lawyers so I should. Blocking the lockers in 4h is kind of a pet peive of mine - my LJ does not have any of that Tom foolery.

That’s exactly it - when you have the education and experience to know what is needed in a situation it is beyond frustrating to have the vehicle keeping you from doing what you need to do. Struggling when you don’t need to be. Not a good end-user experience at all. Makes you wish to be in a different vehicle altogether.

 

[OIBScout]

It's not rare, almost no one knows what the modes do. The is TFLOffroad, one of the most popular off road channels on YT. They owned a long term Bronco, here they are comparing LR/Jeep/Bronco on 3 wheel slip test, he ends up cycling modes almost at random try to get forward motion. The jeep just drove off without drama:

The problems not only that people don't know what the modes do, it's that they don't offer manual control over things like Brake Force Distribution, or to enable TC in 4L.

Hence, why I would just like to have direct control, and not depending on cylcing modes, that are poorly explained, and may not even have the combination you want.

Just provide a clear manual setting for everything.

Great video.

Land Rover came from front / center (selectable in cab) / rear differential on ladder frame design. They integrated TC and HDC as early as Freelander, and they are the benchmark. Of course, I've owned a half-dozen of them, and driven from Canada to Guatemala (much of this off-highway), and may be biased. If the AWD systems in Scout are to this level, most shade-tree and overland off-roaders will be happy. I care little for gonzo rock-crawling, and I don't think it reasonable for any manufacturer to over-cater to such an "aftermarket anyway" micro subset of users.

 

[Scoutsie]

It's not like GOAT modes are going to make novices capable of handling tough trails. It actually might encourage them to get in over their heads.

While I don't like them, I'm not dead set against them as long as they include a manual mode as I indicated in the first post.

"If you must have modes, have one be manual, and remember you were using manual the last time..."

So, I did some reading on GOAT modes, having no experience, and I’ve read what the folks here have to say, and I’m not convinced that they’re a bad idea. How are they different from selecting a preset program with saved preferences ideal for a situation on a home appliance? Couldn’t you, theoretically, make your own presets? I’m not seeing how this is a bad thing, especially because it’s something new to me. I probably wouldn’t understand the nuance of knowing when to disengage a roll bar or even know that I could do that. If some rocky, muddy terrain is in front if me and I have a setting for rocky, muddy terrain, why wouldn’t I use a preset setting that’s theoretically going to be chosen best by the manufacturer for the capabilities of this vehicle that I just dropped a bunch of money on? They’ve got more to lose from me disengaging the roll bar on my own, flipping over, and dying in a fiery and highly-publicized crash than someone on the internet.

And I get that you’re not dead set against them @CarTechGeek, this is more for anyone who is and also because I really do want a better understanding of how it could be bad for someone like me to use a GOAT mode. I saw that you could still end up stuck in a situation, but why (user error because _____) is what I’m looking for.

 

[CarTechGeek]

Couldn’t you, theoretically, make your own presets?

That would be a very good way to go. Because then you are in control of, and obviously know that they do. But AFAICT, you can't do that for the GOAT modes.

If there was a lot of configurability and clarity on exactly what they do, I would like them a lot more.

 

[Scoutsie]

That would be a very good way to go. Because then you are in control of, and obviously know that they do. But AFAICT, you can't do that for the GOAT modes.

If there was a lot of configurability and clarity on exactly what they do, I would like them a lot more.

Isn’t this documented in the car’s manual? It seems like a real fail to not explain what they do and when they’d be applicable.