Manual Transmission

[difficulTT]

Since we are allowed to suggest anything, I'd like to suggest a manual transmission.

Now I know your saying, "but difficulTT, an electric vehicle doesn't need a transmission at all!" and I get that. but what if Scout did it anyway?

The Porsche Taycan and its stablemate the Audi RS e-tron GT has a 2 speed transmission, so there is president under the VW umbrella already.
Scout doesn't even need to have multiple physical gears, just simulate "shifting" with a clutch and stick shift. The "gears" could be programmed RPM limits of the motor, and the clutch could essentially act as a rotary dial for torque. Add in some fun touches like rev-limiter bouncing and audio cues and now we're talking! To make it authentic, there has to be a clutch petal and the ability to stall and roll back etc... otherwise it's just acting like a CVT with preprogrammed shift points.

And of course, with the push of a button, or perhaps selecting the right "gear", it goes back to full auto, like any other EV.

The single most engaging part of driving IMHO is shifting a vehicle with a clutch and stick shift. I could care less that the DSG can shift faster,
or that the auto is quicker around the track. For me, shifting myself is what makes driving.

Koenigsegg has combined a manual and automatic transmission into one with a gas powered car: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/...sion-manual-automatic-how-it-works-explained/

Ford has already toyed with the idea: https://www.motorauthority.com/news...-has-900-horsepower-and-a-manual-transmission

And now Lexus has confirmed they are working on it too: https://www.autoblog.com/2022/12/05/lexus-electrified-sports-flagship-car-manual-transmission/

This would offer another point of differentiation from the competition. Along with that removable roof, of course

 

[Rustic_father]

As someone who loves manual transmissions on ICE cars I would beg Scout to NOT include a manual transmission.

Having a manual transmission gives you more input to control a sluggish and unresponsive Ice motor. However electric motors are instant regardless of whatever speed you are going at.

Furthermore a manual transmission would add weight and that is not helpful in any situation. This would also be complicated further if they are to offer dual or even quad motors.

If it isn’t a physical transmission but rather a software lurch to simulate a gear shift that would be terribly inefficient.

Let’s not ask Scout to follow Toyota with anything BEV. Just look at the bZ4x and how terrible it is.

 

[Rustic_father]

@difficulTT I saw this video today, thought it was relevant

 

[HattoriHanzoAxleshaft]

A third pedal used to control the movement of certain wheels when crawling might not be a bad idea... a simulated clutch or brake line-locks that allow certain wheels to freewheel or lock up depending on terrain and speed,

I've stated before that one of my big complaints about EV drivetrains is the absolute inability to disconnect into a true neutral state when you need to move it without power or in an emergency... Having driven mostly manual transmissions all my life, I'm obscenely biased toward some sort of physically operated transmission/transfer case/locking axles. It's a shame that part of the driving and ownership dynamic is dying.

I can't be the only prospective new car buyer who's aching for levers to pull, more pedals to push, buttons that click, hubs to lock in... the whole 9 yards. That particular aspect of Scout ownership will never come back, as automotive "progress" has made many of the fun, engaging, day-to-day factors some of us enjoy obsolete.

Which is why I'm literally begging Scout Motors to design a modest BEV conversion kit that allows for manual transmission use...
It doesn't need a ton of range, just a fast charging system. 150 miles is more than adequate for my local needs, 200 could be the initial goal.
My needs don't exceed 200hp/300tq., anything more could potentially shred a vintage drivetrain with an incorrect power curve.
Top speed with my 4.27 gears can remain 65-70... anything more is suicidal, but some better acceleration would be welcome.

Sell me a kit with instructions a mechanic can follow...

 

[Rustic_father]

A third pedal used to control the movement of certain wheels when crawling might not be a bad idea... a simulated clutch or brake line-locks that allow certain wheels to freewheel or lock up depending on terrain and speed,

I am curious how the third pedal would work. The electronic systems controlling the motors sense wheel spin within fractions of a second, and with the best option for off roading having 4 independent motors that wheel spin will simply cause the computer to tell the individual motor to stop. In addition if you have driven an EV with "one pedal driving" you will notice that there is instant deceleration when you let off of the accelerator...much like down shifting. This all combined make controlling an EV on rocks or rough terrain insanely precise. You don't to rev, engage clutch, switch pedal to stop/slow, then move your foot again to go faster. While all of this adds to the skill and allure of being a manual off roader it is just not required when you have the advanced systems that an EV brings.

I've stated before that one of my big complaints about EV drivetrains is the absolute inability to disconnect into a true neutral state when you need to move it without power or in an emergency... Having driven mostly manual transmissions all my life, I'm obscenely biased toward some sort of physically operated transmission/transfer case/locking axles. It's a shame that part of the driving and ownership dynamic is dying.

this seems to be a 1 in a million scenario. why would the vehicle be dead? it is easy to put the vehicle in neutral, even when the main pack is dead as long as the 12v has some charge. because if there is no power the only thing you need to do is disengage the brakes because if there is no power....there is no power preventing the motors from turning.

I don't think that the loss of transmission/transfer-case/locking axles are a loss for the driving experience. Those things were invented and used to cope with the limitations of the internal combustion engine. Without the internal combustion engine why are they needed?

I can't be the only prospective new car buyer who's aching for levers to pull, more pedals to push, buttons that click, hubs to lock in... the whole 9 yards. That particular aspect of Scout ownership will never come back, as automotive "progress" has made many of the fun, engaging, day-to-day factors some of us enjoy obsolete.

Which is why I'm literally begging Scout Motors to design a modest BEV conversion kit that allows for manual transmission use...
It doesn't need a ton of range, just a fast charging system. 150 miles is more than adequate for my local needs, 200 could be the initial goal.
My needs don't exceed 200hp/300tq., anything more could potentially shred a vintage drivetrain with an incorrect power curve.
Top speed with my 4.27 gears can remain 65-70... anything more is suicidal, but some better acceleration would be welcome.

Sell me a kit with instructions a mechanic can follow...

Look i get it, I'm a life long manual driver, and I've also been a mechanic. I know there is a pride in being able to change gears at that right time and listening and really understanding an engine. But just because it is a skill doesn't mean it isn't antiquated and unnecessary. As a lover of manual transmissions i get a ton of fun driving my EV. what normally i would down shift for i don't have to and i already have the power ready to use. EVs are fun if you give them a chance.

 

[difficulTT]

Always appreciate the Munro videos.

And they said it right at the end "...might be fun to drive."

As I said, it doesn't have to be physical gears, but just a realistic simulation of the engagement of driving a stick that I'm after. I'm not interested in an appliance that solely functions in the name of efficiency; it also has to offer me an enjoyable experience.

Do Teslas fart sounds add efficiency? Does "Party Mode" on the Model X, where the doors are swinging back and forth just wasting energy? Of course not, but what those things do do is endear the vehicle to their owners and bring them enjoyment. If we only chase efficiency then I imagine the car could calculate the ideal speed given the current conditions and only drive at that pace. Or lock out the windows as that would cause too much drag etc...

And when it comes to manual transmissions, I get that what some people find fun others see as a chore. Adding the ability to simulate the engaging aspects of driving a manual, and then switch to "regular" EV mode seems like the best of both worlds. We want fun bright colors, and throwback graphics and fabric patterns. And why not a bit of "old-fashioned" driving nostalgia that can be toggled on or off as we see fit?

Since this subforum is essentially a giant wishlist, I figured I'd throw out a big one.

 

[Rustic_father]

Always appreciate the Munro videos.

And they said it right at the end "...might be fun to drive."

It might be fun, i do miss the sensation but much like those simulator rides at Disney...you will know something is missing and it is all fake.

As I said, it doesn't have to be physical gears, but just a realistic simulation of the engagement of driving a stick that I'm after. I'm not interested in an appliance that solely functions in the name of efficiency; it also has to offer me an enjoyable experience.

Do Teslas fart sounds add efficiency? Does "Party Mode" on the Model X, where the doors are swinging back and forth just wasting energy? Of course not, but what those things do do is endear the vehicle to their owners and bring them enjoyment. If we only chase efficiency then I imagine the car could calculate the ideal speed given the current conditions and only drive at that pace. Or lock out the windows as that would cause too much drag etc...

The only argument i can come up with against this method of thinking is that party mode and farting doesn't require anything additional that isn't already installed in the vehicle. It was only utilizing the components that were already there in fun ways. In order to have a manual transmission simulator you will need to have the center console centered around a gear shifter that will need to be secured and fortified to prevent it from being cheap feeling. This is something extra that needs to be incorporated into the design and building of the vehicle which essentially serves no functional purpose.

It isn't only about only targeting efficiency...changing gears in actuality is only maintaining that narrow band that an ICE is efficient...the rational about chasing efficiency is due to the limiting factor of energy storage in a battery. every little bit counts to allow the owner to do as much of what they want with it. I know efficiency isn't sexy / macho but it is something that is less of a factor in ICE vehicles which already are very inefficient when it comes to how much energy is actually captured compared to the energy potential.

And when it comes to manual transmissions, I get that what some people find fun others see as a chore. Adding the ability to simulate the engaging aspects of driving a manual, and then switch to "regular" EV mode seems like the best of both worlds. We want fun bright colors, and throwback graphics and fabric patterns. And why not a bit of "old-fashioned" driving nostalgia that can be toggled on or off as we see fit?

I honestly love manual transmissions and i hate automatic transmissions with a passion. however nearly everything i work hard to achieve in manual transmissions (i.e. the power when i want it, fast acceleration) all are just in an EV without the extra steps and instant. I honestly can say overall i have more fun driving my EV than i do driving a manual. Yes some times it would be fun to drag race but that is very out weighed by not having to shift in traffic...(also traffic in an EV is a breeze with one pedal driving)

Since this subforum is essentially a giant wishlist, I figured I'd throw out a big one.

I don't mean to be so argumentative, i have made put in my own wish list items which are probably far reaching. I just personally feel that manual transmissions belong on ICE cars and are the better form. however this isn't ICE and has no place on an EV.

 

[difficulTT]

every little bit counts to allow the owner to do as much of what they want with it.

...And I want to waste it moving a lever and pedals connected to nothing all while making racecar noises because it will bring a smile to my face

 

[IdahoJOAT]

Which is why I'm literally begging Scout Motors to design a modest BEV conversion kit that allows for manual transmission use...
It doesn't need a ton of range, just a fast charging system. 150 miles is more than adequate for my local needs, 200 could be the initial goal.
My needs don't exceed 200hp/300tq., anything more could potentially shred a vintage drivetrain with an incorrect power curve.
Top speed with my 4.27 gears can remain 65-70... anything more is suicidal, but some better acceleration would be welcome.

Sell me a kit with instructions a mechanic can follow...

There's a company out of California with several EV conversion options: Electric GT

Supposedly GM is coming out with their own e-crate system as well, which I'm super excited about converting a Traveler into EV.

 

[Rustic_father]

There's a company out of California with several EV conversion options: Electric GT

Supposedly GM is coming out with their own e-crate system as well, which I'm super excited about converting a Traveler into EV.

I would love to use one of those conversion kits on a Jeep Cherokee

 

[IdahoJOAT]

I would love to use one of those conversion kits on a Jeep Cherokee

Yeah I've talked with them and they have ZERO interesting in any kind of sponsorship or any kind of discount. So their V8 kit starts at like $58k... whew that's a lot of money.

 

[speedrye]

I support the idea of being more involved in driving somehow. All of my vehicles are manuals, and I enjoy them for the involvement they provide, despite being slower than their automatic counterparts. ALL automatic vehicles I've driven are desperately boring to drive to me. Tesla? Boring. 911 Turbo with PDK? Boring.
Give me some kind of connection to the vehicle that makes sense, whether that's through a third pedal function, or two joysticks where I can control it like a skidsteer. There's gotta be something you can do to make an EV less toaster-esque.

 

[Rustic_father]

I support the idea of being more involved in driving somehow. All of my vehicles are manuals, and I enjoy them for the involvement they provide, despite being slower than their automatic counterparts. ALL automatic vehicles I've driven are desperately boring to drive to me. Tesla? Boring. 911 Turbo with PDK? Boring.
Give me some kind of connection to the vehicle that makes sense, whether that's through a third pedal function, or two joysticks where I can control it like a skidsteer. There's gotta be something you can do to make an EV less toaster-esque.

What does toaster-esque mean? Have you driven an ev before? There are no gears and with one pedal you are quite literally directly in-tune with the vehicle. No gears and transmissions and clutch means the exact movements of the pedal are exactly what the car will do. As a lover of manual transmissions I can tell you that an ev that has 1 pedal driving gives me more consistent and predictable control than a manual transmission.

Personally to me adding a "manual shift simulator" to an EV is like adding a hood scoop onto a hood that doesn't have an air intake up there. Or it is like adding an extra pipe to make it look like you have a dual exhaust. None of these things actually do anything.

I get it a manual is fun for controlling the limitations of an Internal combustion engine but that's like wishing the Ford model A had a Saddle because people spent a lot of time perfecting how to ride a horse.

 

[speedrye]

What does toaster-esque mean? Have you driven an ev before? There are no gears and with one pedal you are quite literally directly in-tune with the vehicle. No gears and transmissions and clutch means the exact movements of the pedal are exactly what the car will do. As a lover of manual transmissions I can tell you that an ev that has 1 pedal driving gives me more consistent and predictable control than a manual transmission.

Personally to me adding a "manual shift simulator" to an EV is like adding a hood scoop onto a hood that doesn't have an air intake up there. Or it is like adding an extra pipe to make it look like you have a dual exhaust. None of these things actually do anything.

I get it a manual is fun for controlling the limitations of an Internal combustion engine but that's like wishing the Ford model A had a Saddle because people spent a lot of time perfecting how to ride a horse.

Yeah, I've driven several EVs, and like automatics before them, I find them boring and appliance-like. Maybe I just haven't driven one with any character yet. Assuredly quick, but boring. I completely agree with you in opposition to anything that just simulates a manual transmission.

In the end, I'm just left wondering what can be done with the technology. As braking technology improved, control over each wheel allowed incredible things like better ABS, traction and stability controls, fake-torque vectoring, etc that really upped the game for handling and vehicle dynamics. I'm hoping the ability to control power differently per wheel or axle can also transform the drive, while also allowing some more manual control in a creative and fun way.

 

[Rustic_father]

Yeah, I've driven several EVs, and like automatics before them, I find them boring and appliance-like. Maybe I just haven't driven one with any character yet. Assuredly quick, but boring. I completely agree with you in opposition to anything that just simulates a manual transmission.

In the end, I'm just left wondering what can be done with the technology. As braking technology improved, control over each wheel allowed incredible things like better ABS, traction and stability controls, fake-torque vectoring, etc that really upped the game for handling and vehicle dynamics. I'm hoping the ability to control power differently per wheel or axle can also transform the drive, while also allowing some more manual control in a creative and fun way.

There was a Video that I watched recently about the off road performance of the rivian R1S and R1T. During the tests the guy noted one vehicle felt like it was pulling and the other felt pushing. One thing that might be an interesting implementation could be something similar to Tesla track mode where it gives you the control to change the balance of power the AWD controls. In Tesla track mode you can change essential make it a RWD or FWD system (as much as one can with permanent magnet motors) depending what you are attempting. I think an off road mode that gives you a control to give you a bit more rear or front power depending what you are doing would be great.

Unfortunately given the nature of electric vehicles I don't think there are any mechanical things to add to the driving experience everything would likely be software based.

However one thing I have changed my mind on or rather I've been converted by from that video is the possibility of locking differential. The rivians in the video are both 4 motor versions meaning they have 1 motor for each wheel giving (in theory) each wheel the ability to work independently of the other 3. However a dual motor system would likely have 1 motor in the front and 1 in the rear. I think the possibility of locking those differentials might allow the dual motors to be as competitive if not better off road than the 4 motor versions.

 

[PapaTire]

.....

I get it a manual is fun for controlling the limitations of an Internal combustion engine but that's like wishing the Ford model A had a Saddle because people spent a lot of time perfecting how to ride a horse.

Funniest thing I have read this week. I couldn't agree more.

 

[Phenix]

I love me a manual transmission, but I am also in the camp of an unnecessary expense. We don’t need another $100,000+ EV.

 

[Eswanson]

I am in the camp of them doing this one right... you can do it right as a competitor to the Rivian and really to $70K+ cars (really $90K+) or you can do it as something unique. Do whatever one of those you are going to do the best it can be done. Unique could be a standard transmission. You see some EV conversion companies looking to this model. You may (not the engineer, just worked on cars most my life) be able to install a standard transmission and transfer case with a smaller overall motor package to save costs, preserve historic connections, etc... It could also ruin the rig. It could make us destroy transmissions, have to re-program things, loose out on advancements in automotive tech that we will ultimately like. It will ultimately come down to factors such as price, sales estimates, the type of market they want to reach and we cannot pick that for them at this magnitude.

 

[PapaTire]

I am in the camp of them doing this one right... you can do it right as a competitor to the Rivian and really to $70K+ cars (really $90K+) or you can do it as something unique. Do whatever one of those you are going to do the best it can be done. Unique could be a standard transmission. You see some EV conversion companies looking to this model. You may (not the engineer, just worked on cars most my life) be able to install a standard transmission and transfer case with a smaller overall motor package to save costs, preserve historic connections, etc... It could also ruin the rig. It could make us destroy transmissions, have to re-program things, loose out on advancements in automotive tech that we will ultimately like. It will ultimately come down to factors such as price, sales estimates, the type of market they want to reach and we cannot pick that for them at this magnitude.

So what you are saying is it is complicated? Not everyone will be happy no matter what is decided and I agree fully on pick a segment and do it well. Hopefully that lands where I might like it to be. If not, there will be other options.

 

[J Alynn]

So what you are saying is it is complicated? Not everyone will be happy no matter what is decided and I agree fully on pick a segment and do it well. Hopefully that lands where I might like it to be. If not, there will be other options.

Well said sir!