Dealerships Are Dying

[Harris005]

I saw this on my way to work today. It looks to be a solar charging station, off grid, and is designed to be set up and functioning in a short order. I don't know that it has rapid charging capabilities, but I do wonder if they could work for overnight trail camps? Maybe Scout could partner with Beam and pioneer the way to reduce range anxiety off road.

Googled "Beam Solar" - https://beamforall.com/

 

[Harris005]

I saw this on my way to work today. It looks to be a solar charging station, off grid, and is designed to be set up and functioning in a short order. I don't know that it has rapid charging capabilities, but I do wonder if they could work for overnight trail camps? Maybe Scout could partner with Beam and pioneer the way to reduce range anxiety off road.

View attachment 703

Googled "Beam Solar" - https://beamforall.com/

One step further with this idea.... I was poking around at off road trail apps. It appears that OnX Offroad is a popular one. My main question I was looking up was to see if they work with Apple Carplay and/or Android Auto, which they do . After watching a few videos on it, I got to thinking this might be a good partnering with Scout Motors as well. If this app could have a filter on it that showed the trails with these charging stations; it could draw the Scout EV community in to them.

The level up feature it could also look to do is have Scouts report battery usage on each trail leg (direction of travel would matter). As more and more legs data is compiled, the app could identify all the trail options in front of the driver based on the Scouts current remaining battery percentage. As well as a comfortable need to turn around and head back notification. Rapid chargers at park entrances would be key to so the trip to and from home doesn't have to be apart of the trails range equation. Sure you could find some volunteers on this forum to log those trail hours for data

 

[IdahoJOAT]

One step further with this idea.... I was poking around at off road trail apps. It appears that OnX Offroad is a popular one. My main question I was looking up was to see if they work with Apple Carplay and/or Android Auto, which they do . After watching a few videos on it, I got to thinking this might be a good partnering with Scout Motors as well. If this app could have a filter on it that showed the trails with these charging stations; it could draw the Scout EV community in to them.

The level up feature it could also look to do is have Scouts report battery usage on each trail leg (direction of travel would matter). As more and more legs data is compiled, the app could identify all the trail options in front of the driver based on the Scouts current remaining battery percentage. As well as a comfortable need to turn around and head back notification. Rapid chargers at park entrances would be key to so the trip to and from home doesn't have to be apart of the trails range equation. Sure you could find some volunteers on this forum to log those trail hours for data

Like the F35 connectivity but done right lol

 

[Harris005]

Like the F35 connectivity but done right lol

Had to Google that one. I was more thinking trail leg "XXX", traveling east to west, used XX kWh. Then that data is inputted and stored within the OnX Offroad app for that portion of the trail leg. Knowing each of the kWh numbers of each leg; it can then show all the options avalible to finish out your day on the mountain and get you back to an enterance, or the next charging hub (with a comfortable % of remaining battery). Not so much an always live, updating communication system.

 

[speedrye]

Back to the dealership idea-

I bought one of the first MINI Coopers when they came back to the US, and MINI really did it right. They started off in a corner of one of the local BMW dealerships and within 2 years had built their own. During that time, the community involvement was incredible. The dealership put together outings, track days, rally-style drives through the twisties in the mountains, etc. Free car washes each Saturday. All kinds of good stuff- even rented a local theater, provided pizza and we all watched the Italian Job remake. It was a unique experience all around.

Living in a state that doesn't allow online sales of vehicles, some level of partnership with the local VW dealerships will be required, if for no other reason than sales/service legality in these states. Dealership groups have incredible lobbying power and influence over politicians...

Beyond that, push community involvement and bring Scouters together for whatever reason you can dream up.

 

[Harris005]

Back to the dealership idea-

I bought one of the first MINI Coopers when they came back to the US, and MINI really did it right. They started off in a corner of one of the local BMW dealerships and within 2 years had built their own. During that time, the community involvement was incredible. The dealership put together outings, track days, rally-style drives through the twisties in the mountains, etc. Free car washes each Saturday. All kinds of good stuff- even rented a local theater, provided pizza and we all watched the Italian Job remake. It was a unique experience all around.

Living in a state that doesn't allow online sales of vehicles, some level of partnership with the local VW dealerships will be required, if for no other reason than sales/service legality in these states. Dealership groups have incredible lobbying power and influence over politicians...

Beyond that, push community involvement and bring Scouters together for whatever reason you can dream up.

Interesting to hear that some states don't allow online sales of vehicles. Bummer! Restating my last comment on that post "Car salesmen are the worst " - sorry if some of you out there are, but I have never had good experiences with them.

That kind of stuff would make me wanna go to the next state over and buy a vehicle .

 

[speedrye]

Interesting to hear that some states don't allow online sales of vehicles. Bummer! Restating my last comment on that post "Car salesmen are the worst " - sorry if some of you out there are, but I have never had good experiences with them.

That kind of stuff would make me wanna go to the next state over and buy a vehicle .

Tesla managed some exceptions in a number of states before legislatures caught on. My Rivian R1S delivery is on indefinite hold because they can't deliver or have service centers in NC. Some earlier deliveries were made in NC, but have since stopped at last check. Friggin' politicians...

 

[J Alynn]

Tesla managed some exceptions in a number of states before legislatures caught on. My Rivian R1S delivery is on indefinite hold because they can't deliver or have service centers in NC. Some earlier deliveries were made in NC, but have since stopped at last check. Friggin' politicians...

I just read that Honda/Acura are going to online ordering for all new EV vehicles and possibly their full lineups. Sounds like the dealers will still be part of the equation-probably to work around the politics as well as justifying keeping brick and mortar locations in operation

 

[IdahoJOAT]

I just read that Honda/Acura are going to online ordering for all new EV vehicles and possibly their full lineups. Sounds like the dealers will still be part of the equation-probably to work around the politics as well as justifying keeping brick and mortar locations in operation

And here Jeep is developing their own showrooms...

 

[Harris005]

Had to Google that one. I was more thinking trail leg "XXX", traveling east to west, used XX kWh. Then that data is inputted and stored within the OnX Offroad app for that portion of the trail leg. Knowing each of the kWh numbers of each leg; it can then show all the options avalible to finish out your day on the mountain and get you back to an enterance, or the next charging hub (with a comfortable % of remaining battery). Not so much an always live, updating communication system.

Question for the battery brains out there.... Fast forward to 2036: With 10 year old batteries, will the software compensate for weaker batteries and adjust showing a shorter available range? Or would it see the data uploaded from a newer Scout battery 10 years earlier, think it could make it, and end up short?

Do 10 year old batteries show that they can't charge to 100%, or do they charge to 100% and just drain down faster?

Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm still on ICE level, never been around EV's (yet )

 

[J Alynn]

And here Jeep is developing their own showrooms...

I’m thinking they just drop 2 shipping containers at some of the VW dealerships. One to pull Scout in and service and one for sales. Then if needed you load them on tractor trailer bed and move where needed. Or keep extra corporate containers and deliver them to Scout events around the country. Have one or two for service/repairs after event and use one for merchandise/parts. Maybe one container is literally a giant battery and Scouts could charge off a certain percentage before leaving and get to nearest legit charging station. Shipping containers could also be shipped via train if necessary. Much less expensive that 20,000-30,000 sq ft dealerships and all the infrastructure. I still think small sized dealerships at higher demographic regions would be needed but imagine flexibility of larger shipping containers.
Just some thoughts from my crazy architect brain.

 

[JosephFrascati]

Question for the battery brains out there.... Fast forward to 2036: With 10 year old batteries, will the software compensate for weaker batteries and adjust showing a shorter available range? Or would it see the data uploaded from a newer Scout battery 10 years earlier, think it could make it, and end up short?

Do 10 year old batteries show that they can't charge to 100%, or do they charge to 100% and just drain down faster?

Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm still on ICE level, never been around EV's (yet )

Hi Matt. Generally speaking for EVs, the vehicle software is quite smart and it will not tell you there is more energy available than there really is. So if the battery stores less energy after 10 years, your "range" will show as lower. EVs typically are using a predefined calculation* of energy level to # of miles. This is a guideline and not an exact science as the car does not know if you are going to be driving uphill or using the heater). Even with a new battery, if it's cold and I unplug from the charger, get in, and look at my range - it's a lower number than when it is warm as the temperature can affect how much energy a battery pack will store. One of my EVs has battery pack preconditioning (it uses the thermal mgmt system of the pack to warm it while on the charger so that it holds a more typical charge when it's cold).

I am not sure an older battery drains faster as opposed to just holding less of a charge. Using the AC/Heat, cranking the stereo, seat heaters, etc are likely going to affect speed of drain in a much more noticeable way.

As EVs transition from niche to mainstream, I believe companies are going to consider making battery pack replacement more practical/easier. Owners of early EVs are starting to see some pains around battery pack repair or replacement (some of that has more to do with the manufacturer's approach to vehicle servicing). I suspect newer designs will put a bit more thought into this as refurbished packs, replacement packs, etc. are likely to be alternatives that consumers look into. There is also a "second life" element to these packs where they will continue to be used for years after they are removed from vehicles. EV battery packs will continue to make positive contributions to society as they get incorporated into "stationary" storage solutions (backup or auxiliary power banks, things like that).

Things get better and better over time, so by the time Scout makes design and engineering decisions, the details on this topic as it pertains to the new Scout will be more clear.

*as software gets better and better I presume it calculates known routes if you program a route in, or they will start to use machine intelligence to provide more accurate figures. It's early days and getting better all the time. If Scout hits the market in 2026 which I think their goal is? Software will be much more advanced by then.

 

[Rustic_father]

Question for the battery brains out there.... Fast forward to 2036: With 10 year old batteries, will the software compensate for weaker batteries and adjust showing a shorter available range? Or would it see the data uploaded from a newer Scout battery 10 years earlier, think it could make it, and end up short?

Do 10 year old batteries show that they can't charge to 100%, or do they charge to 100% and just drain down faster?

Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm still on ICE level, never been around EV's (yet )

the batteries aren't "weaker" they just hold less capacity. think of it like it as if your gas tank fills up with gunk over time. When you go to the pump and "fill up" it takes less to fill it up and the vehicle still registers as full, but there is less actually in the tank....so therefore it drains quicker but at the same rate as it would before.

One thing to keep in mind is that over the First-year batteries will usually lose around 5% of their capacity, then after that they can lose up to 1-2% of the remaining capacity per year. With better and better battery technology that can be reduced. There are many reasons why battery packs degrade over time but here are two of the main reasons:

-Batteries are made up of many small batteries. Old teslas had 16,000 cells and the rivian has 7,776 cells, and other pouch style batteries use fewer cells. But as an example, if a single cell were to fail it would likely fail in it's first year. and in a tesla even 1% of 16,000 cells is likely. Additionally Older teslas (the ones we have better data on) were not the best manufactured. (Shocking i know). so, the likeliness that a handful of these batteries would fail is highly likely. and even 1 cell has ramifications on the whole pack because it creates a deadzone that breaks up the perfectly calculated series and parallels making the whole pack less even...its not huge but 1 cell failure is more of an impact of 1/7776th (if a rivian)

-The other reason batteries degrade over time is because they get physically worn out. The wear is located in the separator. without getting too technical it is a physical separation layer from the side that produces electrons to the side that will store them. Electrons have to physically pass through this layer which can get worn out. It is much like clogging up a fuel injector which makes it not able to properly pass electrons from the side that produces it. which means the electron can't get out and therefore the side can't produce more electrons. This is why Solid-state batteries are a huge thing, solid state batteries either eliminate the separation or they introduce ways of storing the electrons while still being able to produce more all within the same area.


Also I do want to mention/Stress that with the information that we actually have information on are the poorly manufactured older teslas (Model S/X) even after 150,000 miles (chart below is in KM) average battery degradation was about 20%....there are many factors to consider such as charging habits and age of the cars. This means that it is likely to experience a 10% degradation after 10 years of ownership meaning if the vehicle started with 300 miles of range after 10 year it would only be capabile of 270 miles....but who knows maybe by 2036 there will be even better battery technology out there that we can just swap into the scout to give us 800 miles of range.

a few things to note from this chart.
- It shows an *average* degradation of 20ish
- This is old tesla battery technology, the technology has evolved twice since the inception of these cells.
- As you can see in the data the vast majority of vehicles are well below the 150,000KM range(90,000 miles) which means that the ones above that likey are heavy super charger users. frequent super charger usage can damage the separator faster because of the speed it is forcing electrons through the battery.
- the best thing to note about this chart is even the first generation of tesla batter technology is able to sustain a charge over long periods of time....so it won't be like your 3 year old iphone that can't stay unplugged for more than 3 hours.

sorry if i gave too much information.

edit(link to the source of the chart)

EDIT#2 - another thing to note is that some car companies also add additional battery storage and leave it "Unavailable" to counter act the effects of degradation. For example the VW ID4 has an 83kW battery pack but only 77kW is useable. This way as the pack degrades more of it us useable, essentially ensuring the vehicle maintains the advertised range through the realistic "life" of the vehicle.

 

[Harris005]

the batteries aren't "weaker" they just hold less capacity. think of it like it as if your gas tank fills up with gunk over time. When you go to the pump and "fill up" it takes less to fill it up and the vehicle still registers as full, but there is less actually in the tank....so therefore it drains quicker but at the same rate as it would before.

So back to the idea of trail legs being logged with requiring X amount of battery to complete it (again just thinking trail difficulty isnt as simple/accurate as computing highway miles), with what you are saying here the 10 year old Scout could use the same data that the new Scout logged into the OnX app?

To further this with what @JosephFrascati was saying that number would have to come from the baseline that just operates the vehicle motors. If the vehicle sees you using heated seats, AC, cranking the stereo, etc; it then knows to subtract those battery draining items from the range. It should also takes outside air temperature into consideration and subtract X miles off of the range based on how cold it is?

Just trying to wrap my simple mind around the basics of how something like this could be achieved and helpful for trail range anxiety. Thanking both of you for you insight on this!

 

[Rustic_father]

So back to the idea of trail legs being logged with requiring X amount of battery to complete it (again just thinking trail difficulty isnt as simple/accurate as computing highway miles), with what you are saying here the 10 year old Scout could use the same data that the new Scout logged into the OnX app?

To further this with what @JosephFrascati was saying that number would have to come from the baseline that just operates the vehicle motors. If the vehicle sees you using heated seats, AC, cranking the stereo, etc; it then knows to subtract those battery draining items from the range. It should also takes outside air temperature into consideration and subtract X miles off of the range based on how cold it is?

Just trying to wrap my simple mind around the basics of how something like this could be achieved and helpful for trail range anxiety. Thanking both of you for you insight on this!

I wish I could explain this in a way that will relief your range anxiety....but the honest truth is that there is nothing anybody can tell "you"(meaning anybody) that will relief range anxiety.....the truth is it is something you have to experience for yourself.

I know that also isn't helpful, but it is the truth. I am sure you can assume that I did a ton of research before I bought my Tesla....but I still had range anxiety for months even after owning it. The only thing that relieved my range anxiety (and my wife's) was to do our first road trip with it. I did a simple one from Virginia to Philadelphia. I did all the planning on the different apps but I was still nervous. Only when the car performed better than the predictions did I have full confidence in it's range.

My wife also was extremely skeptical about my car before the trip. Before the road trip she would insist any errand or trip over 30 minutes wasn't worth risking taking the Tesla. After the road trip we would never take her SUV out of the garage. Now adays the only use my wife's SUV gets is to take her to work once per week and then to go to Costco since the Tesla trunk can make thing difficult depending on what you buy.

I gave this story because only when you are comfortable with your car can you get over the anxiety. Once you go on a trail for the first, second, or third time you will know that 5minutes of hard climbing will drain 1% of the battery (this number is made up).....each trail is different but I'm sure with some time you will understand the car.

If you want to test how some current EVs real world range is I recommend checking out A Better Route Planner (ABRP; link here) this is a VERY accurate route planner. You select what vehicle you have (I recommend selecting the Rivian R1S for the closest match to the scout)....then you just do a route you normally do and this will calculate how much battery you will lose..you can also add extra passengers and weight to see how different it could be alone vs when you are loaded for a road trip. This planner also tells you if and where are the optimal places to stop for charging and exactly how long you will need to stay there....I highly recommend playing around with it.

 

[J Alynn]

I wish I could explain this in a way that will relief your range anxiety....but the honest truth is that there is nothing anybody can tell "you"(meaning anybody) that will relief range anxiety.....the truth is it is something you have to experience for yourself.

I know that also isn't helpful, but it is the truth. I am sure you can assume that I did a ton of research before I bought my Tesla....but I still had range anxiety for months even after owning it. The only thing that relieved my range anxiety (and my wife's) was to do our first road trip with it. I did a simple one from Virginia to Philadelphia. I did all the planning on the different apps but I was still nervous. Only when the car performed better than the predictions did I have full confidence in it's range.

My wife also was extremely skeptical about my car before the trip. Before the road trip she would insist any errand or trip over 30 minutes wasn't worth risking taking the Tesla. After the road trip we would never take her SUV out of the garage. Now adays the only use my wife's SUV gets is to take her to work once per week and then to go to Costco since the Tesla trunk can make thing difficult depending on what you buy.

I gave this story because only when you are comfortable with your car can you get over the anxiety. Once you go on a trail for the first, second, or third time you will know that 5minutes of hard climbing will drain 1% of the battery (this number is made up).....each trail is different but I'm sure with some time you will understand the car.

If you want to test how some current EVs real world range is I recommend checking out A Better Route Planner (ABRP; link here) this is a VERY accurate route planner. You select what vehicle you have (I recommend selecting the Rivian R1S for the closest match to the scout)....then you just do a route you normally do and this will calculate how much battery you will lose..you can also add extra passengers and weight to see how different it could be alone vs when you are loaded for a road trip. This planner also tells you if and where are the optimal places to stop for charging and exactly how long you will need to stay there....I highly recommend playing around with it.

I think I’m beyond worrying about range anxiety within the reality of on road driving. Since virtually no one has been doing long term off-roading in a full blown EV I think that is the fear people have. Not knowing what/how off road courses will affect energy use when off the beaten path is a very legitimate concern and very little is documented. That said I think the tracking app ideas are great and will start generating historical data for anyone wanting to off road in the future be it a Scout or other vehicle

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

Just wanted to thank all of you for sharing your experiences and talking through this stuff. We all learn something from it. I think Chris and I are likely going to get EVs on our next lease cycle to live with and document here in the forums. I have driven numerous EVs before, but never owned one full time and I'm looking forward to it. I'm a gear head, so I have some reservations/skepticism but also think it will be fun to experience it and share it here in the forums.

I would also offer that our engineers love this kind of stuff and will be doing a ton of testing with our first mules/test Scouts, particularly off-road. While we have numerous torture racks that can simulate years of abuse, the main test facility at Ehra Lessien has an off-road test area and numerous hills, potholes, different roadway surfaces and more. I've been there a few times and it's an amazing place. Here is a video on some of the torture testing that goes on there for the Volkswagen Group brands:

 

[Rustic_father]

I think I’m beyond worrying about range anxiety within the reality of on road driving. Since virtually no one has been doing long term off-roading in a full blown EV I think that is the fear people have. Not knowing what/how off road courses will affect energy use when off the beaten path is a very legitimate concern and very little is documented. That said I think the tracking app ideas are great and will start generating historical data for anyone wanting to off road in the future be it a Scout or other vehicle

Understood. All I can suggest is the knowledge we already know. Also one can have rough estimates and comparisons to how much fuel a vehicle uses on a trail when comparing the amount of the tank used instead of just talking about MPG.


If a trail usually will use 1/4 of a fuel tank assumption you might use up 25% of a battery during that time.....there are many thing to consider such as weather and that EVs don't idle or have to rev up or use more "fuel" due to low gear ratios. Also there is regenerative braking to take into account

I wonder if anybody has any reference for a jeep....like how many miles of fuel does a jeep use up on a trail? As in if normally it takes x amount of fuel to travel 1 mile but then how much fuel does it take to drive 1 mile on the trail?

The thing is we won't know until more people do testing with rivians and even then every trail is different and the rivian will perform different from the scout. (Hopefully the scout will be much better)

 

[RebelliousPeasant]

What I'd like to see Scout do is an electric forecourt like what Gridserve does in the UK. It would be a sort of 21st century dealership but much more than just a building that sells cars with a huge parking lot. And you wouldn't need to set up a Scout-branded charging network or anything, just provide a venue for established charging providers like Electrify Canada/America, Tesla, Chargepoint...to set up DCFC units and then charge them rent.

You would only need one or two facilities like this per metro area because most sales happen online now anyway but physical facilities are still useful for delivery and maintenance purposes. Even Tesla still has stores and maintenance shops. You'd locate these facilities along a major routes, out of town somewhere (where land is cheap!). It would be a combination of rest stop (with coffee shop and restaurant, gym, washrooms, playplace for kids etc), charging site (with numerous fast chargers), power station (with solar and possibly wind generation) and it would also have facilities to sell and repair vehicles. It would be open to all EVs from any brand but you'd have dedicated retail space for Scout inside the building. If Scout does go the dealer-franchise route it would allow the "dealership" owner to have a number of diverse revenue streams (selling cars, vehicle maintenance/aftermarket modifications, retail rents from the food and beverage providers, energy production income from the hydro company, fast charge revenue, etc) and it would also serve a legitimately useful purpose as charging/rest stop just out of town. Or these could all just be corporate owned to cut out middle-men.

One of the problems with the current dealership model (and there are many problems!) is that because EVs don't require a lot of maintenance - and maintenance is where dealers typically make most of their money - they aren't very motivated to sell EVs because they will literally be put out of business by them. Dealers don't have a lot of revenue streams so they tend to try and milk customers for every penny they can (at least that's how it feels for us consumers!) and they don't like EVs because EVs don't offer many opportunities to be milked. Something like a Gridserve-style facility would help with that particular aspect of the business model a lot I'd think.

This is what a Gridserve facility looks like. Notice all the solar generation and chargers, they also have an EV retailer inside along with food and coffee shops, book stores, meeting spaces, lounges, gyms, etc.

 

[GotScout]

Still sorting that out. We will update when we have more info.

lol put a maple leaf on the door jamb and make them come south to get em!!