Battery Chemistry

[RebelliousPeasant]

I'm starting a thread on battery chemistry because I think it might be an important discussion to have. I'm not sure how far along internal discussions are at Scout as far as batteries go but I'd hope that lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries are being given some serious consideration. The have a lot of benefits over the more common NMC (nickle manganese cobalt) cells, especially if ruggedness is a theme. LFP can be abused much more than NMC. They can be charged 100% all day long and left at 0%, they have almost no risk of thermal runaway (ie fire), and are generally less expensive. The main drawback of course being they are a bit less energy dense but I feel on a truck-sized platform clever engineers could probably mitigate that fairly well. I think for an off-road application where zero-to-60 times don't matter LFP is the way to go.

Curious to hear what the Scout team thinks on this and anyone else?

 

[R1TVT]

If Audi is any indication of Scout's direction, which we would expect, then not sure there would be a more likely choice.

The Audi Q8 e-tron incorporates the power of twin electric motors along with a large 106 kWh capacity lithium-ion battery. As a result of this massive battery capacity, the e-tron can deliver a maximum range of up to 285 miles

 

[RebelliousPeasant]

If Audi is any indication of Scout's direction, which we would expect, then not sure there would be a more likely choice.

The Audi Q8 e-tron incorporates the power of twin electric motors along with a large 106 kWh capacity lithium-ion battery. As a result of this massive battery capacity, the e-tron can deliver a maximum range of up to 285 miles

LFP are still lithium-ion, just a different chemistry than most EVs out there. Companies like Tesla and BYD ship LFP batteries in some of their cars. It would be nice if Scout was one of those companies as LFP has many advantages as I've mentioned.

 

[R1TVT]

LFP are still lithium-ion, just a different chemistry than most EVs out there. Companies like Tesla and BYD ship LFP batteries in some of their cars. It would be nice if Scout was one of those companies as LFP has many advantages as I've mentioned.

Who uses NMC?

 

[germanscoutfan99]

So, since there is a certain connection to the big german car company, it will probably get VW's battery unit cells. Which will come with different chemistries. Lfp(low cost), high manganese(high volume) and a high energy one (nmc or possibly solid state). These will probably be produced in canada, in vw's/powerco's new batteryplant.

Lfp would be a good choice to achieve a low price as well as a low degradation and good safety. However cold weather performance and range would be a bit inferior to nmc. As u wrote, with good engineering this can be solved.

I'm as well really interested in scouts plans with battery and chemistry. Are there any considerations of solid state?
Wouldn't it be great to revive this wellknown us car brand with the best new us batterytechnology... just a thought.

 

[RebelliousPeasant]

Who uses NMC?

Pretty much everyone. It's the industry standard. Old Leafs used LMO (lithium manganese oxide) but they were the odd one out. Everyone from Tesla to Rivian to VW and Hydunai use NMC for pretty much all of their EVs. Tesla has started using LFP for some of its cars and VW and Hyundai are talking about moving to LFP for some vehicles but for the most part right now, if it's electric it's probably NMC.

 

[germanscoutfan99]

Pretty much everyone. It's the industry standard. Old Leafs used LMO (lithium manganese oxide) but they were the odd one out. Everyone from Tesla to Rivian to VW and Hydunai use NMC for pretty much all of their EVs. Tesla has started using LFP for some of its cars and VW and Hyundai are talking about moving to LFP for some vehicles but for the most part right now, if it's electric it's probably NMC.

Yes, most ev's use nmc right now. More and more manufacturers are switching to lfp for the entry level vehicle. To achieve the lower price tag

 

[RebelliousPeasant]

So, since there is a certain connection to the big german car company, it will probably get VW's battery unit cells. Which will come with different chemistries. Lfp(low cost), high manganese(high volume) and a high energy one (nmc or possibly solid state). These will probably be produced in canada, in vw's/powerco's new batteryplant.

Lfp would be a good choice to achieve a low price as well as a low degradation and good safety. However cold weather performance and range would be a bit inferior to nmc. As u wrote, with good engineering this can be solved.

I'm as well really interested in scouts plans with battery and chemistry. Are there any considerations of solid state?
Wouldn't it be great to revive this wellknown us car brand with the best new us batterytechnology... just a thought.

I'm not holding my breath for solid state. There are a lot of practical engineering challenges yet to be solved with it and people talk about it like it's a holy grail but some of the limitations with solid state currently include fragility (the solid electrolyte literally can fracture and break over time), low power delivery (polimer electrolytes don't let ions through as quickly as liquid so they can't provide as high a current), but the big one that has yet to be solved is that solid state batteries currently don't work well below 5 degrees C which would be a big problem for something like a car.

I'm not saying they'll never happen but unless Scout or its suppliers have been hiding some breakthroughs in the technology it's not something I'd expect to see in production any time within the next decade or so.

A lot of the benefits of solid state can be achieved with something like LFP (ie not likely to have thermal runaway, can take damage and not fail, etc). The main thing people are hoping solid state will do is increase energy density (up to double!) but current EVs have good range now using existing tech so that's not necessarily as important as some make it out to be. It would be nice if batteries could be smaller and lighter which is something solid state promises too but again it's not essential to having a practical vehicle. It would be great, don't get me wrong, but current batteries are good enough that it's not like we can't make compelling and very functional EVs.

 

[R1TVT]

From RJ Scaringe at Rivian, posted March 10, 2022, For reference:

Rivian announced that it developed a new pack architecture using Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LFP) cells in its latest Shareholders Report.

Rivian is expanding its cell and pack technology by including high-nickel and LFP cells. The company believes that including more battery chemistries would expand its available supply while reducing costs.

The Illinois-based EV manufacturer plans to use the LFP cells in its Standard battery packs and the Rivian Commercial Van (RCV) — otherwise known as the all-electric Amazon delivery van. Rivian believes commercial customers will see similar daily range capabilities with LFP chemistry while providing significant cost savings for the company.

“Along with that, our standard battery pack is leveraging LFP and LFP chemistry, and that chemistry not only allows us to offer that pack at a lower cost, but it really fits commercial applications well. And it’s first going to be launched in the commercial vehicle platform later this year, and then will make its way into our consumer vehicles by late 2023,” said Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe during the Rivian Q4 and Full Year 2021 earnings call.

As for Rivian’s consumer vehicles, like the R1T and R1S, LFP-based Standard battery packs are expected to provide a range of over 260 miles. Rivian believes that the LFP Standard battery pack will offer consumers a more affordable entry price.

“Now as we develop these new offerings, we need to make sure that these offerings could fit into our product portfolio. And to do that, we revisited the overall pricing strategy. Prior to the pricing changes, our R1 platform had a price range without options of $67,500 to $83,500 and only included quad-motor variants. With the addition of these new product offerings, the R1 platform’s price range is now $67,500 to $95,000, including both quad and dual-motor configurations as well as the standard range LFP battery pack,” Scaringe said.

 

[JohnnyScout]

Anything that offers more flexible and compartmentalized power containment would be welcome. Think about hanging up on a Boulder and having to replace your entire single battery pack because of a puncture. No matter how thick the underbody protection and thicker means added weight stuff happens. So if you could replace battery cell sections as needed you could even run around town with a half load of batteries and throw in the balance e for a road trip.

I am also a fan of 4 separate wheel motors as Ferry Porsche originally envisioned and invented back in 1899. With over 100 years development EV range itself is still only 2.5 times a Baker Electric. But I digress as wheel motors is a topic for a different thread. But it certainly makes sense to me for AWD and eliminate unnecessary driveline. And weight and lost energy

 

[oldgeeksguide]

Anything that offers more flexible and compartmentalized power containment would be welcome. Think about hanging up on a Boulder and having to replace your entire single battery pack because of a puncture. No matter how thick the underbody protection and thicker means added weight stuff happens. So if you could replace battery cell sections as needed you could even run around town with a half load of batteries and throw in the balance e for a road trip.

I am also a fan of 4 separate wheel motors as Ferry Porsche originally envisioned and invented back in 1899. With over 100 years development EV range itself is still only 2.5 times a Baker Electric. But I digress as wheel motors is a topic for a different thread. But it certainly makes sense to me for AWD and eliminate unnecessary driveline. And weight and lost energy

I’ve always been intrigued by this idea as well. I’ve followed Lordstown (now out of business ) and Aptera (hoping they survive) who rely on in wheel motors. It’s more complicated than it might seem at first; in wheel motors have to take quite a beating since they’re not protected by the suspension that buffers the rest of the car from the wheels, there’s some questions about seals, and everyone always chimes in about “unsprung mass”. Particularly for off roading, it’s probably helpful to separate the motors from the wheels, as Rivian did, and there are advantages to being able to direct more than 1/4 of your power to a single wheel (ie fewer bigger motors connected via diff). But for elegance and efficiency, it’s a really cool idea.

 

[JohnnyScout]

Granted on a smaller scale are the internal hub motor-battery- mitispeed transmission found in some e-bikes . A wheel motor since brakes are incorporated electrically can fit fully inside the protection of the rim.

And I feel the opposite about unsprung weight. Sprung weight requires, well, springs and dampers. The less unsprung % the harder the suspension must work.