Real-World Range

[pwrofgrayskull]

I keep seeing with EVs the real-world realized range versus manufacturer stated range can sometimes vary quite a bit depending on who manufactured the vehicle. I imagine buying a vehicle for an intended use scenario while leaning on manufacturer estimates, only to find the vehicle does not have anywhere near the advertised range and may not be able to accomplish what you need/want/intend for it to do when used in the real-world would be a maddening experience at best - and even worse when it comes to a brand launch.

I realize there are a multitude of variables here, but I would really like to see Scout Motors end up in a place where real-world experience meets and maybe even exceeds the expectations set when it comes to manufacturer stated range.

In every part of life, I find it very frustrating for a business to set expectations and then not be able to meet them. In my book, “underpromise and overdeliver” earns my respect and loyalty every time.

 

[speedrye]

I don't think Scout is required to advertise the EPA ratings, they just can't advertise better-than-EPA-ratings. Nothing should be stopping them from advertising their own, more conservative numbers, and this could be used as an ad campaign against other EV manufacturers advertising inflated numbers from an outdated testing method. Just keep it simple and advertise Motor Trend's or Car and Driver's real world range or something instead so that prospective buyers could at least compare the results to other vehicles using the same test.

 

[CarTechGeek]

They will probably want to advertise EPA range for competitive reasons. Range will be the starting place for many making an EV comparison, you don't want to appear dead last in comparison, and get eliminated before you can even explain that you are offering more real world type numbers.

I just wish the EPA would update its EV numbers to include "Range at 70 MPH".

When people are concerned about EV range, it's most often about highway miles...

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

They will probably want to advertise EPA range for competitive reasons. Range will be the starting place for many making an EV comparison, you don't want to appear dead last in comparison, and get eliminated before you can even explain that you are offering more real world type numbers.

I just wish the EPA would update its EV numbers to include "Range at 70 MPH".

When people are concerned about EV range, it's most often about highway miles...

Good points. Do you know at what point in the process EPA range is determined? That comes when the vehicle gets certified for sale when it comes to U.S. units, no? So that’ll be quite some time from now I would imagine.

Since my nearest highway has an 80mph speed limit, I definitely agree with your 70mph thought.

 

[Jhscout]

I believe the EPA test for EV’s is something like 55% highway 45% city speeds. I know my Tesla is EPA rated at 270miles and the best range I show is 268 when charged to 100%. Which is very accurate if not doing a 100% highway road trip. Real world range is about 230ish miles non stop at 75-78mph. If I didn’t speed and drove the speed limit, I bet I could get real close to the EPA range.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I have >50,000 miles of BEV driving experience (not the most, but not nothing). Just like with a gas vehicle, the individual range is highly dependent on several variables, some of which are under the driver's control and some of which are not. Speed is the variable that has the most impact when traveling long distances; acceleration behavior is the variable that has the most impact when driving around town.

My Lightning is advertised as EPA rated for 320 miles range. I can easily surpass that in town by 50% if I don't do high accelerations. On the freeway, I can surpass that by going 72-73 mph and drafting behind a semi (I can get >350 miles range on the freeway). On the freeway if I go 80 mph, I will get about 290-300 or worse. If I'm towing, I'll get about 150 to 250 miles, depending on all the details.

Environmental variables also impact range: headwinds are almost exactly like increasing speed. Very cold means the battery chemistry is happening at a lower rate so the available energy is less. Very hot may require cooling of the battery, which takes energy.

 

[R1TVT]

This is a 2022 R1T launch edition window sticker with MPGe listed (and 314 miles of range): I will add that the range estimates were very much on target with the R1 launch. As mentioned above, there are many variables impacting range and how YOU drive, will make a big difference in actual range. Good news is that the SW will adjust based on driving like an idiot (which I often can do) and adjust your estimates on the fly and as you go, of course.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Oh, also... People FREAK OUT about the range estimate on the dash. Especially in the winter when it's cold out (there are dozens of threads asking if the buyer was cheated out of the long range battery because the range estimate is lower than they expected--no, they didn't give you the standard range battery). In the EV world it's called a "Guess-O-Meter" because it's rarely accurate. Some manufacturers have better guessing algorithms than others. You will get used to knowing when it's wildly wrong and when it's close to accurate. I use the State of Charge % to do my calculations, usually coupled with the distance I've driven on that % and adjust for upcoming changes in driving behavior, environmental conditions, etc.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

I believe the EPA test for EV’s is something like 55% highway 45% city speeds. I know my Tesla is EPA rated at 270miles and the best range I show is 268 when charged to 100%. Which is very accurate if not doing a 100% highway road trip. Real world range is about 230ish miles non stop at 75-78mph. If I didn’t speed and drove the speed limit, I bet I could get real close to the EPA range.

That seems pretty decent actually, good info. I see a lot of people complaining that Teslas can be way off on range estimates - am I possibly confusing EPA estimate with on-dash estimates? Which one are they referring to? Are they complaining more about the dash saying something like 250 miles at 100% and then they end up only getting 188 miles - is that what they’re referring to? I say this because your experience seems pretty reasonable, so I’m trying to figure out what all the complaining is about.

 

[CarTechGeek]

Inside EV, test EV at 70 MPH vs EPA:

https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/

Teslas typically come up short.

Porsche is a good example of the danger of under-rating. Taycan got roasted for poor range/efficiency because they under-rated the Taycan and did much better in real world, but doesn't help if people don't know that.

Vehicle	Price	Real Range (Miles)	EPA Range (Miles)	Difference	Efficiency (mi/kWh)
2022 Lucid Air Dream Edition Range	$169,000	500	520	-4.0%	4.30
2022 Mercedes EQS 450+	$102,310	395	350	+13.0%	3.67
2022 BMW iX xDrive50 w/20" Wheels	$83,200	345	324	+6.5%	3.25
2023 Cadillac Lyriq RWD w/20" Wheels	$62,990	330	312	+5.8%	3.15
2021 Tesla Model 3 AWD	$48,990	310	353	-12.2%	4.25
2023 Porsche Taycan RWD 93 kWh Battery (New Software)	$81,150*	305	225	+35.8%	3.66
2021 Tesla Model S Plaid w/21" Arachnid	$134,490	300	348	-12.0%	3.30

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

I have >50,000 miles of BEV driving experience (not the most, but not nothing). Just like with a gas vehicle, the individual range is highly dependent on several variables, some of which are under the driver's control and some of which are not. Speed is the variable that has the most impact when traveling long distances; acceleration behavior is the variable that has the most impact when driving around town.

My Lightning is advertised as EPA rated for 320 miles range. I can easily surpass that in town by 50% if I don't do high accelerations. On the freeway, I can surpass that by going 72-73 mph and drafting behind a semi (I can get >350 miles range on the freeway). On the freeway if I go 80 mph, I will get about 290-300 or worse. If I'm towing, I'll get about 150 to 250 miles, depending on all the details.

Environmental variables also impact range: headwinds are almost exactly like increasing speed. Very cold means the battery chemistry is happening at a lower rate so the available energy is less. Very hot may require cooling of the battery, which takes energy.

Makes a lot of sense to me. Sounds pretty similar to a gasoline vehicle in a lot of ways then. I appreciate you sharing your experience.

 

[Jhscout]

That seems pretty decent actually, good info. I see a lot of people complaining that Teslas can be way off on range estimates - am I possibly confusing EPA estimate with on-dash estimates? Which one are they referring to? Are they complaining more about the dash saying something like 250 miles at 100% and then they end up only getting 188 miles - is that what they’re referring to? I say this because your experience seems pretty reasonable, so I’m trying to figure out what all the complaining is about.

I feel those people aren’t honest with themselves and their driving habits. EVs will exponentially lose efficiency the faster they are driven and the harder they accelerate. Also, the conditions will change things as well. So, driving 80mph+ in 40degrees and a 20mph wind, I bet I couldn’t even make it 150 miles on a charge.

Don’t forget you are not supposed to charge lithium batteries to 100% unless you are going to immediately start to discharge them. With that in mind, I bet there is some “user error” when reporting real world driving range because they started at 85% state of charge.

All of this leads to the best fact around Scout EVs… with the NACS port, it should be able to use the Supercharger network which is highly reliable and 1000’s of locations.

Also, I think the EPA made Tesla revise their range estimates, because when I bought my MYP in ‘22, the range was listed at 303. And now it is 277, which is very reasonable in my 44k miles of experience.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Don’t forget you are not supposed to charge lithium batteries to 100% unless you are going to immediately start to discharge them. With that in mind, I bet there is some “user error” when reporting real world driving range because they started at 85% state of charge.

Most manufacturers retain a few percent to 10% of the battery out of the user's reach. For example, my Lightning's battery capacity is actually 143 kWh, though it's advertised as having 131 kWh of usable capacity. The truck reserves 12 kWh. Some people talk about it as "at the top" and "at the bottom," which is conceptually reasonable. But when the vehicle says it has 100% state of charge, it's really no more than about 91-92% state of charge.

The point of my comment is: people shouldn't worry about charging to 100% state of charge as displayed by the vehicle.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Makes a lot of sense to me. Sounds pretty similar to a gasoline vehicle in a lot of ways then. I appreciate you sharing your experience.

It's very similar. The biggest difference is both a boon and a potential issue for EV drivers.

There are actually many, many more places we can charge than a gas vehicle can refuel. But the vast majority of those charging opportunities are at level 1 (overnight or slower) or level 2 (in a few hours) rather than fast (in the time it takes to get lunch and go to the restroom).

Boon:
I can charge at home, which wasn't possible with a gasoline vehicle. It costs me about $12 to fill up my Lightning from 0% to 100% when I charge at home. I can also charge (at least a little) anywhere someone is willing to let me plug in my mobile 120v charger. Sometimes it's silly because a 1.1 kW effective charge rate for a 131 kWh battery means <1% charge in an hour; that's not terribly helpful unless I'm staying for a while. But if I'm visiting family for a couple of days, I can be charging whenever the vehicle is idle (weirdly, people always want to take the Lightning or the Mustang when we visit).

Issue:
The fast charger infrastructure is still being built-out and there is not yet a <50 miles between charging stations density. So a bit of planning is necessary for new EV drivers. With nearly three years and 50,000 miles, I rarely do planning ahead of time now.

I do the same thing I used to do: pull up the map, look at the proposed route, decide if I think it'll be mostly reasonable, make adjustments as I feel is necessary, then put it away. When I'm on the road, at the first charging stop, I look for the next charging stop and usually plan it for a meal time or a walk-around and stretch time. I can hardly stand to stay in a vehicle seat for more than two to three hours, so "having" to stop every 180 to 240 miles is perfectly fantastic with me.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

This is a 2022 R1T launch edition window sticker with MPGe listed (and 314 miles of range): I will add that the range estimates were very much on target with the R1 launch. As mentioned above, there are many variables impacting range and how YOU drive, will make a big difference in actual range. Good news is that the SW will adjust based on driving like an idiot (which I often can do) and adjust your estimates on the fly and as you go, of course.

Luckily I typically drive like a grandma unless I’m in a mood, so maybe I would be okay. The instant torque of an EV might be hard to resist though. Okay so maybe realized range might be kind of low for a couple of days during new ownership. Or weeks. Months? Hmm.