But the original Scout that explored America was gasoline powered.

[carboy57]

It's awesome that here in Blythewood all this infrastructure is being improved. Roadways, railways and public transportation. However, where's the infrastructure for all the extra electric power it will take for the end user to keep these charged up? How can you have a offroad electric vehicle? you going to carry a extra can of electricity in the woods when you run out of power? Why wouldn't you build this as a hybrid vehicle? I'm a car guy. What's with all this politically correct nonsense? I guess the WOKE movement is pushing its way into transportation world by storm.

In my opinion you are taking a once great vehicle and turning it into some mamby pamby vehicles for people that are afraid to get their hands dirty and greasy. At least t he Bronco your competitor still is gasoline and still is a brut of sorts offroad. The oxymoron of every EV powered vehicle is the entire vehicle is made from petroleum products. So ridiculous.

 

[R1TVT]

Ha! That is 1 person's perspective. I will share a very different one. I live in New England, so my trips around New England for Adventure (skiing, MTB'ing, surf, fishing, camping, etc.) all happen within a 4-hour MAX drive for 95% of my activities). My kids play for two different LAX clubs, so there is longer travel to places like Annapolis or Delaware a few times each summer, but those longer trips are an exception - not the norm). If I am going on a planned road trip that is longer duration, I simply stop to charge at Bfast, Lunch or Dinner time. This does 2 things: 1). it allows me to take a break from driving & eat. 2). it allows me to avoid rush hour traffic at the busiest times of the day. This simple shift in mindset to more planning around departure time, arrival and SOC for the battery took some adjustment at first, because to your point, fueling at a gas station and using a restroom is brainless today and takes a lot less than a 30-minute pit stop. Once you own an EV though, the process of thinking through a trip starts to become second nature. You also learn that charging between 20-80% SOC is way more efficient. The only time I ever charge to 100% is the night before I leave to go somewhere. In my case, I can also charge for free in some of my adventure destinations. If I arrive at the ski area, I can plug in for the day and top-off and not worry about getting back through rural New England to the next charging stop to top-off again, if needed. this infrastructure for slower-charging at destinations is improving.

Also, if we are talking about a vehicle that isn't even close to production, there is a ton of time to optimize range. Your E-tron range at 225 is almost 100 miles less than my R1T (which is a year old). I'm sure Scout is very aware that battery tech (and charging) are becoming much more efficient, and launching a vehicle 2 years from now at 225 (with current vehicles that can deliver between 300-400 miles of range) would likely be a failed attempt to launch.

So, at the end of the day, YMMV!

 

[lefty]

On the topic of EV mileage, I am not sure if anyone saw the article on the Dodge Ram and its 500 mile range: https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/05/business/ram-rev-electric-truck-500-miles/index.html.
This is for a 2024 release, 2 years ahead of the Scout. So serious range extension seems quite plausible by the time the Scout rolls off assembly.

 

[Spiegelglatt]

Different parts of the US have varying infrastructure and population. Here in Oregon I remember as a kid my parents took a drive one lazy afternoon into the logging trails in the mountains between the outskirts of a suburb to Portland and the coast…this entire area is referred to as the Tillamook State Forest…despite being relatively narrow mountain range, the forest logging roads are notorious for getting folks lost…we wondered around in the forest for four hours or so before coming out someplace on the coast and as a kid it kinda freaked me out because we were legitimately lost for a while and getting low on gas. Back in the day my folks had a van and the trip used a tank of fuel as we stopped first thing into a terrible run down mom and pop gas station at some wide spot in the road.

This is the same coast range that the family from California died in when their GPS got them lost and then their vehicle got stuck in snow, then they ran out of fuel and froze to death-been over ten years now since that was in the news I think but I would t be surprised if every year a few people get lost and die in there.

On the other side of Portland there is also the Mt Hood National Forest which boarders the willamette national forest, which borders the Umpqua national forest and so and and so on all the way down into California…you want to venture in there with an electric vehicle and no way to charge it it could be a death sentence…plain and simple.

I get what others are getting at as I have traveled the US and also lived in Germany for a while and am aware how it is hard for some folks to realize how desolate some parts of the US are…I am not even going to mention other parts of the US in Montana, Arizona, Wyoming and so and and so on…

I am not devaluing others views on what can be done with an EV from their experiences, I am saying that at the end of the day an EV is a urban or suburban vehicle based on the fact that if there is no building and no gas station in the above places there is most assuredly is no charging station to “top off at” while sitting down with Sasquatch for lunch or dinner.

 

[R1TVT]

There's no doubt that there will be range anxiety for new EV owners when they start. The example I used (taking a truck into the mountain and to a ski area in Northern VT ) is neither urban or suburban. So I would tend to refute that claim. I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you venture into the forest and don't know your way around or have a contingency plan and die b/c you ran out of gas or electricity - especially in this day and age, then that is on you (not your ICE or EV vehicle). You could drive an EV truck from Hood River through Bend and reach Klamath Falls with one stop for a charge today if you wanted to.

When you filter on FAST CHARGERS ONLY (min power 200+ kW) this is what your current charging map looks like. There are other charging stations (like Rivians RAN network) that don't even show on this map:

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

At the end of the day: with current tech EVs simply are not adventure vehicles. Too short of range, too long to charge. No way to bum a gallon of gas off a buddy or friendly stranger. Disclosure: I have a VW group EV, an Audi Etron. It’s four wheel drive and built on the Q8 suv platform, so it could get into some backcountry, but I wouldn’t even consider taking it on a long road trip. It’s a safe bet that the scout will pretty much equal this platform when it comes out: 5500 lbs, 400hp, 225 mile range.

It isn't actually a safe bet at that range.

In fairness, your older J5 E-Tron with 225miles has been replaced with the newer Q8 E-Tron with either 306 or 361 miles of range depending on the battery pack. This is also in an older EV platform.

Let's see where things shake out when the vehicle gets to market. Battery technology and software are only getting better.

 

[Rustic_father]

On the topic of EV mileage, I am not sure if anyone saw the article on the Dodge Ram and its 500 mile range: https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/05/business/ram-rev-electric-truck-500-miles/index.html.
This is for a 2024 release, 2 years ahead of the Scout. So serious range extension seems quite plausible by the time the Scout rolls off assembly.

While it is very exciting to see that a dodge ram truck has an estimated 500 miles there is a factor to consider: long range means large battery which means high initial cost. with lithium ion batteries are the most energy dense and it also is very expensive see below:

with the best known reference point to a dodge ram truck being a Ford Lightning we can assume that a dodge ram will likely consume roughly 350 watts per mile. meaning in order to achieve 500 miles the battery needs to be at least 175 KW. and by looking at the graph above a 175 KW battery will roughly cost $26,425....and that's just the battery.

My assumption is they targeted 300 miles with a load....much like ford lightning target 300 miles with 1,000 lbs in the bed...but instead of advertising the unrealistic number they are advertising the lower one so people feel better about actually getting what is advertised.

In a similar note Rivian is offering multiple battery packs the standard pack aimed at 280 miles, large pack at 315, and a very large pack aiming at 400 miles. This helps tier the cost of the EV since the biggest hurdle is the initial upfront cost.

 

[Rustic_father]

Different parts of the US have varying infrastructure and population. Here in Oregon I remember as a kid my parents took a drive one lazy afternoon into the logging trails in the mountains between the outskirts of a suburb to Portland and the coast…this entire area is referred to as the Tillamook State Forest…despite being relatively narrow mountain range, the forest logging roads are notorious for getting folks lost…we wondered around in the forest for four hours or so before coming out someplace on the coast and as a kid it kinda freaked me out because we were legitimately lost for a while and getting low on gas. Back in the day my folks had a van and the trip used a tank of fuel as we stopped first thing into a terrible run down mom and pop gas station at some wide spot in the road.

This is the same coast range that the family from California died in when their GPS got them lost and then their vehicle got stuck in snow, then they ran out of fuel and froze to death-been over ten years now since that was in the news I think but I would t be surprised if every year a few people get lost and die in there.

On the other side of Portland there is also the Mt Hood National Forest which boarders the willamette national forest, which borders the Umpqua national forest and so and and so on all the way down into California…you want to venture in there with an electric vehicle and no way to charge it it could be a death sentence…plain and simple.

I apologize in advance if i appear confrontational on this topic but as with any new technology there are fears about "how"...."how will this change what I'm doing now?" "How can i do this when I'm so used to that?"

Yes an EV can run out of power just like an ICE can run out of fuel. Yes being an EV doesn't change that the person behind the wheel is likely not very responsible.

Charging infrastructure while in it's infancy is rapidly expanding and with faster chargers and faster chargind vehicles it means that most stops at a fast charger last anywhere from 10 minutes to 20 minutes...not the 40 minutes to 1 hour that most people assume.

additionally when cars were first coming out don't you think someone was saying this same thing? "that poor family took that contraption up the mountain, ran out of fuel...if only they had their horse they could have kept going"

I get what others are getting at as I have traveled the US and also lived in Germany for a while and am aware how it is hard for some folks to realize how desolate some parts of the US are…I am not even going to mention other parts of the US in Montana, Arizona, Wyoming and so and and so on…

I have driven most of the US to include driving from my home state of NY to Washington state when i was first activated on Army orders. I remember driving in the middle of nothing and this is 100% the biggest differrence between the US and the rest of the world especially europe.

However there is electricity everywhere. If you were to put one fast charging plug in every gas station in the middle-of-no-where towns not only would you have more chargers than people most likely. Electric cars can go for further than you think and take less time to charge than you think. In a normal road trip situation you will likely have to stop after a few hours either to eat or to use the restroom...or both. where as normally your vehicle stays vacant and unused while you are taking a Wee instead your car will be charging during that time. 10-15 minutes is really all one needs to give an EV a good charge to get on your way for a few more hours....and if you stop for a full sit down meal, i guarentee the car will be charged to 100% well before you are done eating. the only difference is you can't do the "piss in a bottle" and "pump and turn" fast road tripping any more.

where the middle of america is the biggest hurdle that EVs have, it is by no means unabtainable...not keep going back to my previous old worldly example....i 100% guarentee that 100 years ago somoene was saying how there are no pumps in the mid west and horses are working just fine.

I am not devaluing others views on what can be done with an EV from their experiences, I am saying that at the end of the day an EV is a urban or suburban vehicle based on the fact that if there is no building and no gas station in the above places there is most assuredly is no charging station to “top off at” while sitting down with Sasquatch for lunch or dinner.

I will 100% agree with you that in an urban/suburban environment the EV beats ANY ice vehicle hands down and 3 times on sundays....and right now there is only 1 car company that has anything that resembles an off road vehicle (rivian)...but if you take a honest look at the Rivian you can see the potential in it....i think it truely is an amazing vehicle...and if i could afford one i definitly would.

 

[R1TVT]

In a similar note Rivian is offering multiple battery packs the standard pack aimed at 280 miles, large pack at 315, and a very large pack aiming at 400 miles. This helps tier the cost of the EV since the biggest hurdle is the initial upfront cost.

It is important to note which claims are actually "real". I consider real to be deployed, tested AND rec'd actual EPA ratings out in the wild VS. what should be considered "marketing, forward-looking, "estimated", or in the case of the Cyber Truck - just plain hype. Rivian only has 1 battery pack that has been delivered to customers ---> The LARGE pack. If you go to configure and reserve a new Rivian R1T right now, you can go through a configurator process and even select the 400 Mile pack, BUT it won't let you actually place a deposit on that pack and reserve that truck when you reach the end of the line.

If you chose the MAX PACK for an additional 16K, you will see this message when you try to reserve:

My only point here is that, while it is really nice that Elon Muck announced a SUPER MEGA EV TRUCK for $39K, that will never happen. RAM can announce a 500 mile range truck right now, but that hasn't happened either. And to the OP's credit, if it were to happen, RAM would need to charge a PREMIUM $$$ for a 500 mile range truck.

 

[Spiegelglatt]

@Rustic_father None taken, I am pro EV but as an analyst for nearly 20 years I often play devils advocate and I get what you are saying. My point really is only to say it would be nice to have pre-fabricated mounts, wiring or Scout infrastructure to add or mod with a generator of some kind-not because I don’t have faith in an EV but because it just makes it more self sufficient. I like being prepared.

Off-road prowess is great and I hope (with everyone else here probably) it is delivered on and I think it will be. The weak link in an EV however is energy storage. It sure isn’t the motors that is why an EV is as technology advanced as the automobile was to horse and buggy. Technology will evolve and improve over time, but a great way to charge a battery that is dead is to convert one energy into another and the easiest way to do that really is a simple generator.

Again I really am very pro EV, but as someone who tows a 7,500 lbs travel trailer 250 miles one way without stopping—-there are some limits still on EV’s until batteries catch up.

 

[Rustic_father]

It is important to note which claims are actually "real". I consider real to be deployed, tested AND rec'd actual EPA ratings out in the wild VS. what should be considered "marketing, forward-looking, "estimated", or in the case of the Cyber Truck - just plain hype. Rivian only has 1 battery pack that has been delivered to customers ---> The LARGE pack. If you go to configure and reserve a new Rivian R1T right now, you can go through a configurator process and even select the 400 Mile pack, BUT it won't let you actually place a deposit on that pack and reserve that truck when you reach the end of the line.

View attachment 906

If you chose the MAX PACK for an additional 16K, you will see this message when you try to reserve:

View attachment 907

My only point here is that, while it is really nice that Elon Muck announced a SUPER MEGA EV TRUCK for $39K, that will never happen. RAM can announce a 500 mile range truck right now, but that hasn't happened either. And to the OP's credit, if it were to happen, RAM would need to charge a PREMIUM $$$ for a 500 mile range truck.

Not sure if this is the right thread for this but i just wanted to give my thought on the idea because it is relevant to battery pack size etc.

I imagine that in the future the main difference between battery packs will be battery chemistry which will be a curved price structure instead of a linier one which could make EVs even more affordable for the lowest end.

Lithium ion is the most energy dense but has the most expensive rare earth metals in it. it has energy density of roughly 220 watts per KG. Or up to 670 Wh/l

Lithium phosphate is similar energy dense but it relies on more common metals. it has an energy density of roughly 160 watts per KG or up to 580 Wh/l

Sodium Ion batteries are the least energy dense but they are relativly cheap because the primary element is salt. it has an energy density of 120 watts per KG (with some reports up to 150 watts per kg) or up to 375 wh/l

So for easy math lets assume we design a car with a 200 l battery box:

Lithium ion would have a capacity of 134 kW
Lithium iron phosphate would have a capacity of 116 kW
Sodium Ion would have a capacity of 75 kW

This is the part where it gets interesting.
lithium ion has a price of $151 per kW which means the battery above would cost 20,234
lithium iron phosphate has a price of $120 per kW which means the battery above would cost $13,920
Sodium Ion has an estimate as low as $40 per kW meaning the pack above would cost $3,000

so hypothetically if a vehicle costs $30,000 base price, then you have a choice of getting a Low range super cheap for $33,000 or go mid range for $43,920, or go premium high range for 50,234.

just my thoughts.like i said i don't know if this belongs here but just something i've thought about but it seemed semi relevant based on prices and ranges.

 

[Rustic_father]

I'm glad you didn't take offense to anything i said, i can get on a rant sometimes.

Again I really am very pro EV, but as someone who tows a 7,500 lbs travel trailer 250 miles one way without stopping—-there are some limits still on EV’s until batteries catch up.

Towing is one of the biggest challenges that face EVs because of the aerodynamics of it. at least with the Tesla Semi they can control the Aerodynamics because everything is a standard trailer/size/shape. I can immagine that there will always remain a need for personal / small buisnes work trucks to be ICE

 

[Jamie@ScoutMotors]

While it is very exciting to see that a dodge ram truck has an estimated 500 miles there is a factor to consider: long range means large battery which means high initial cost. with lithium ion batteries are the most energy dense and it also is very expensive see below:

with the best known reference point to a dodge ram truck being a Ford Lightning we can assume that a dodge ram will likely consume roughly 350 watts per mile. meaning in order to achieve 500 miles the battery needs to be at least 175 KW. and by looking at the graph above a 175 KW battery will roughly cost $26,425....and that's just the battery.

My assumption is they targeted 300 miles with a load....much like ford lightning target 300 miles with 1,000 lbs in the bed...but instead of advertising the unrealistic number they are advertising the lower one so people feel better about actually getting what is advertised.

In a similar note Rivian is offering multiple battery packs the standard pack aimed at 280 miles, large pack at 315, and a very large pack aiming at 400 miles. This helps tier the cost of the EV since the biggest hurdle is the initial upfront cost.

It is worth pointing out that for the Dodge Ram to have a 500-mile range, it will require a 229 kWh battery pack. To put that in perspective, the GMC Hummer EV has a 212 kWh battery pack - putting both of them in the category of some of the biggest (and heaviest). The Ram EV will also have a 168 kWh pack with 350 miles of range offered as well.

 

[J Alynn]

I’m always intrigued reading these EV point of views because I’m new to this. That said, depending on your location and your income, these notions all go out the window. If Scout is telling us the are shooting for $40k and until I get a nice mid-upper level trim and battery pack that gets me 300 miles it costs $65-70K I’ll be out quick and go for a Bronco. On the charging side the factor we don’t discuss is charging availability. So you map your route (as do 30 other drivers) and you stop at meal time (as the 30 drivers do) and your destination has 3-5 chargers. The math doesn’t work unless you are one of the first in. I have parents of my daughters teammates and we all regularly travel for competitions. We typically drive Uber 12 hours (anything more we fly). A 9 hour trip for us has taken them (in their Teslas) 12-13 hours. That’s 150% longer and they plan.
I dont fear running out between stations, I fear wasting huge amounts of time. I-95 carries tons of EV’s and plan all you want when everyone stops at the same locations availability and wait time becomes the largest obstacle. Until that is fixed that is a legitimate concern for any driver taking a trip where deadlines matter. Planning ahead is great but A 9 hour drive to 13 hour likely means overnight in a hotel. Just a thought for us to all think about.

 

[R1TVT]

My thought process would be that, if you frequently travel 12-13 hours on i-95, and that is a primary vehicle criteria in your purchase decision, then an EV truck is probably not going to be the right vehicle for a bunch of reasons. A Bronco probably isn't either - especially on I-95. But, you can snag a sweet deal on a 2 door ICE bronco and pay for gas and maintenance for a mere $57K at your lovely Ford dealer.

Right now, road trips do require some advanced planning and they do take longer an in EV.

And if you are constantly towing long distances with a heavy, boxy trailer, I would buy a diesel dually - not an EV truck.

But, if you are like me and can handle an occasionally long road trip, and you have most of your destinations within a 3 hour drive, it's pretty sweet.

 

[J Alynn]

My thought process would be that, if you frequently travel 12-13 hours on i-95, and that is a primary vehicle criteria in your purchase decision, then an EV truck is probably not going to be the right vehicle for a bunch of reasons. A Bronco probably isn't either - especially on I-95. But, you can snag a sweet deal on a 2 door ICE bronco and pay for gas and maintenance for a mere $57K at your lovely Ford dealer.

Right now, road trips do require some advanced planning and they do take longer an in EV.

And if you are constantly towing long distances with a heavy, boxy trailer, I would buy a diesel dually - not an EV truck.

But, if you are like me and can handle an occasionally long road trip, and you have most of your destinations within a 3 hour drive, it's pretty sweet.


View attachment 908

Yeah-NO. Got my daughter’s Bronco for MSRP and found that hard to swallow. My local dealer can order me one (won’t get it for at least a year ) but Scout or Bronco will be my fun vehicle. My Acura will be my daily/fun car. Packing Olympic style archery bows requires space that a car makes VERY difficult to do. SUV is the way to go. Can always s just take her Bronco

 

[Rustic_father]

It is worth pointing out that for the Dodge Ram to have a 500-mile range, it will require a 229 kWh battery pack. To put that in perspective, the GMC Hummer EV has a 212 kWh battery pack - putting both of them in the category of some of the biggest (and heaviest). The Ram EV will also have a 168 kWh pack with 350 miles of range offered as well.

I didn't see those figure....so they are planning on the ram being super un-arodynamic....either that or they are being ultra conservative on their range estimates.

I know the scout will be "block shaped" but I have confidence that you guys will make something aerodynamic somewhat similar (or maybe better) than the rivian....Boxy to keep the true nature but with some modernizing tweeks....a tough job for sure