I would much, much rather get stuck in a storm in an EV than in a gas vehicle.
Battery Life in Winter
- Thread starter Rampy
- Start date
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Winter travel is a huge concern as I doubt Muddy Gap has a EV charger
Muddy Gap doesn't but there are at least two NEMA 14-50 chargers at Alcova. I'm deciding whether to reserve a Traveler or not but if I do I'll be ordering it with the Harvester option. Wyoming is just too big, too empty, and too cold in the winter to do anything else.
We tend to jump on 287 at Rawlings and take it to Dubois
Have a reservation for the Traveller Harvester
Joining the conversation about the cold weather capability of the Scout. I live in central Indiana. While it never gets "Montana Cold", we will regularly have teens and some below zero (Fahrenheit) days in the winter. I opted for the Traveler and the range extender is a must for me. I have aspirations of going to Jackson, WY and other "crazy" spots in the world and I want a vehicle, in the Scout, that is more than capable.
Since the current battery tech imposes a lot of limits, is it possible to get a more durable battery tech in the Scout, or are we stuck with NiMH?
Since the current battery tech imposes a lot of limits, is it possible to get a more durable battery tech in the Scout, or are we stuck with NiMH?
Cold WX is more than the battery. Range can be impacted with preconditioning prior departure, leaving a car in a garage instead of outdoors, whether or not there will be a heat pump or other mechanisms that will work with the BMS. All too early since we don't yet have battery spec's, but if you follow all of the advancements that have been made with competitors and their cold weather testing (and improvements over time) things are only getting better. TBD on how cold WX will impact Scout, but it is a consideration for every OEM producing EV's. It hasn't really been an issue for me in ski country, and my range hasn't really been impacted when swapping out AT's for slightly heavier dedicated Snow's either.
That stretch is pretty flat. I drive from Colorado Springs to Boulder and back on I-25, which has a very pronounced W-shaped elevation profile with nearly 2,000 feet of gross elevation change, about 1,000 feet net, and several stretches where I set the cruise at 82mph if there's no traffic. In my Polestar 2 (a little more aero than a large SUV...), I can make that round trip on my 75kWh battery with about 25% remaining if I charge up to 100% at the beginning.
My Polestar does have an automatic highway mode that disconnects the front motor and cruises on the rear motor only until it needs it for hard acceleration or traction (...ahem, which is sometimes "required").
160 miles one way shouldn't be that big a deal, to be honest, even on electricity only.
EDIT: ...that last bit is going to become a post on suggested features...
Really enjoy going to Jack Quinn’s in the springs and Dragonman is a trip
Hate driving 25 south of Denver to Pueblo and it’s getting worse (faster/crazier) stopped going to Pueblo after a run in with someone who wanted our car & tried taking it…..
Problem with 160 miles is charging in Sheridan, would almost have to be at a dealership last I looked. Hopefully since it’s a major gateway to Yellowstone they get some Tesla’s fast chargers
Cold weather range hit varies depending on the vehicle and how cold it is plus whether or not steps were taken to mitigate the cold. I'm in Ottawa, Canada and it gets down to -40 here on the thermometer sometimes (windchill doesn't count as it doesn't affect inanimate objects). My Ioniq 5 typically sees a pretty minor range hit for most of the winter, maybe 10%, but it's because it has a very good heat pump and I usually plug it in overnight so that pre-heating can take place in the morning before I use it. Only on the coldest days does the range drop maybe 20% or so. This is in contrast to my old ghetto 2012 Nissan Leaf that had no battery thermal management and no heat pump and would lose about 50% of its already measly range in the winter. Friends don't let friends buy Leafs.
Anyway cars without heat pumps like older Model 3's etc. typically see a bigger range hit in cold weather because they rely on resistive heaters or in the case of Teslas - running the inverters and motors inefficiently on purpose to generate heat. I'm assuming the Scout vehicles will be like other modern EVs and include a good heat pump (and hopefully not like the VW ID4 which had a not-good heat pump). With my current ride I can last a several days just sitting there heating the cabin if I need to. It's never happened but if for some reason I get stuck on the side of a highway in a snowbank somewhere I can keep the cabin warm for about four days or so which is likely more than enough. The Scout will no doubt have a much bigger battery than my current ride but the heat pump should draw about the same amount of energy so I expect Scouts will be able to run it for days longer than my current car. I would expect probably a week or so of just running the heat pump (assuming it has a good one.)
Preheating really helps mitigate range loss in the cold but so does duty cycle. Counter-intuitively you tend to lose more range in the winter driving around town than driving on a road trip. The reason is because when you're doing short trips around town you use a lot of energy (ideally while plugged in) heating everything up only to let it all cool down again when you're in the store or whatever. On a road trip, once you heat everything up it tends to stay warmer because you're using it and fast charging so the impact to range tends to be lower. Also, on road trips the main thing that impacts range is wind resistance which stays relatively constant through the seasons. If you want the most winter range from an EV drive at modest highway speeds for extended periods of time and do fast charges at regular intervals.
Either way, I'd take an EV over a combustion vehicle in the winter every day of the week. There are so many benefits to EVs in cold weather it's not a contest. EVs ALWAYS start in the cold - never and worries there, EVs heat up faster (usually be the end of my street) because they don't have oil and an engine block to heat up first, they can keep you warm longer without worrying about carbon monoxide poisoning, and they handle better in the snow due to the lower centre of mass.
I know Scout has yet to flesh out a lot of details about the vehicle but as someone who uses EVs in the frozen backwoods of Canada a lot there are a few things I'll be looking for:
- cold climate heat pump - the most important thing.
- button (either software or physical) to engage battery pre-heating
- a climate control timer
- illuminated charge port (because it always seems to be dark all the time here in the winter)
- exterior buttons and handles that can be operated with winter gloves.
- manual overrides for latches and doors/ports - because freezing rain happens and makes electrically operated things fail because they aren't strong enough to overcome ice buildup.
- snow mode for the traction control system that limits regen (reduces the risk of losing traction while slowing down).
- an ability to turn traction control off so I can get unstuck if I need to.
The ground clearance we know is already great so no worries about deep snow.
Anyway cars without heat pumps like older Model 3's etc. typically see a bigger range hit in cold weather because they rely on resistive heaters or in the case of Teslas - running the inverters and motors inefficiently on purpose to generate heat. I'm assuming the Scout vehicles will be like other modern EVs and include a good heat pump (and hopefully not like the VW ID4 which had a not-good heat pump). With my current ride I can last a several days just sitting there heating the cabin if I need to. It's never happened but if for some reason I get stuck on the side of a highway in a snowbank somewhere I can keep the cabin warm for about four days or so which is likely more than enough. The Scout will no doubt have a much bigger battery than my current ride but the heat pump should draw about the same amount of energy so I expect Scouts will be able to run it for days longer than my current car. I would expect probably a week or so of just running the heat pump (assuming it has a good one.)
Preheating really helps mitigate range loss in the cold but so does duty cycle. Counter-intuitively you tend to lose more range in the winter driving around town than driving on a road trip. The reason is because when you're doing short trips around town you use a lot of energy (ideally while plugged in) heating everything up only to let it all cool down again when you're in the store or whatever. On a road trip, once you heat everything up it tends to stay warmer because you're using it and fast charging so the impact to range tends to be lower. Also, on road trips the main thing that impacts range is wind resistance which stays relatively constant through the seasons. If you want the most winter range from an EV drive at modest highway speeds for extended periods of time and do fast charges at regular intervals.
Either way, I'd take an EV over a combustion vehicle in the winter every day of the week. There are so many benefits to EVs in cold weather it's not a contest. EVs ALWAYS start in the cold - never and worries there, EVs heat up faster (usually be the end of my street) because they don't have oil and an engine block to heat up first, they can keep you warm longer without worrying about carbon monoxide poisoning, and they handle better in the snow due to the lower centre of mass.
I know Scout has yet to flesh out a lot of details about the vehicle but as someone who uses EVs in the frozen backwoods of Canada a lot there are a few things I'll be looking for:
- cold climate heat pump - the most important thing.
- button (either software or physical) to engage battery pre-heating
- a climate control timer
- illuminated charge port (because it always seems to be dark all the time here in the winter)
- exterior buttons and handles that can be operated with winter gloves.
- manual overrides for latches and doors/ports - because freezing rain happens and makes electrically operated things fail because they aren't strong enough to overcome ice buildup.
- snow mode for the traction control system that limits regen (reduces the risk of losing traction while slowing down).
- an ability to turn traction control off so I can get unstuck if I need to.
The ground clearance we know is already great so no worries about deep snow.
AFAIK they haven't settled on the precise battery chemistry yet. Most EVs are either NCM or LFP though, not NiMH. NCM tend to do better in the cold and are more energy dense but LFP are more robust in other ways, they all have tradeoffs. Either way there are methods to mitigate some of the drawbacks of whatever chemistry is chosen. We'll just have to wait and see but I guarantee the batteries won't be NiMH.
With my ID4, I get about 220ish in summer at 80% while running the AC, in winter at temps at about 14F I can drop to 130-150 miles. I don't have the heat pump that some ID4 have.
Heat pump makes all the difference. With my Ioniq 5 the advertised range is 480 km. In the summer I get about 500km of range and in the winter I get 480 km. My car has a heat pump though, and weather, road conditions and speed all play a factor in range.
Probably the way all EV's in Norway fare every winter. LOL.
Never been to Norway so no idea what the winter is like or how an American EV fares in a Norwegian winter
Maybe we should ponder another question, and ask if any ICE vehicles were stuck in the nasty snowstorm?
Do they have gasoline & diesel powered vehicles in Norway & if so, how do they do in the winter?
Anyone here been to Norway in the winter??
They do, although they also have more EV's per capita than any other country. My response was tongue in cheek, because it doesn't matter what your location is when there is a snowstorm. An EV with summer tires will perform poorly in a snow storm and not "fare well", and an ICE vehicle with summer tires will perform poorly in a snow storm and not "fare well" - whether you are in Buffalo, Bozeman or Bulgaria.
I don't live in Norway but I live in Canada and have pretty much the same sort of weather as a Norwegian winter. EVs do great in the winter. Actually they're better than gas or diesel vehicles if I think about it. EVs take no time to heat up, they always start in the cold, the lower centre of mass means they typically handle better in the snow. They can also keep you warm inside the car for days without worrying about CO emissions or any of that nonsense. Personally I'd take an EV in the winter over a combustion car any day. (and I do!)